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TOPIC: keel cooling question

keel cooling question 19 Oct 2021 15:08 #126371

  • Balliol Fowden
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Lesley Carr wrote: W

- it is collecting in the bilge in the middle of the boat.

T


Does the water contain antifreeze? Antifreeze tastes foul, like Austrian wine, or you may see a coloured stain matching what is in your engine.
Normally the only coolant plumbing outside of the engine space will be to the hot water calorifier so check the connections there as I mentioned earlier.

Balliol.

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keel cooling question 19 Oct 2021 10:50 #126364

  • Lesley Carr
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Thank you Chris - I will endeavour to keep happy while hunting!! It's good to know that you got to the bottom of your problem - eventually! And so will we, but it may take a while by the sound of it!

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keel cooling question 19 Oct 2021 10:48 #126363

  • Lesley Carr
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Thanks again - we are not aware off the skin tank being part of the engine bay structure - although part of it might be underneath the battery bank box ...... I have been looking at all the photos that I took during the build trying to identify it, and failing so far but I am hopeful that Pipers will help.

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keel cooling question 19 Oct 2021 10:46 #126362

  • Lesley Carr
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Wow, thank you - so many ideas. I am doing everything I can to find out where the skin tank is, and its capacity - asking Piper and asking Beta marine - we really do not know. I know that sounds idiotic, and I apologise. I do know about the calorifier, and the overflow from the header tank on top if the engine, and when back aboard we can do the various checks you suggest.

There is no liquid collecting on the bilge in the engine room - it is collecting in the bilge in the middle of the boat. We have bled the system a few times this year, and can use your ideas to make sure it is bleeding sufficiently.

Thank you again

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keel cooling question 19 Oct 2021 09:47 #126356

  • Andrew Rodgers
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Hi Lesley again.
As has also been said by Balliol a measurement of the skin tank(s) is the start point. On Decize an estimate was relatively easy to obtain, the tanks being being visible as part of the engine bay structure. Apart from aiding the volume calculation a drawing showing the tank shape and its connections and bleed points, will help enormously in understanding the problem.
Best of luck
Andy

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keel cooling question 19 Oct 2021 04:21 #126349

  • Chris Rowling
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Hi Les

As Balliol says, getting air out of a Beta can be intellectually challenging . On my genset engine I had to remove the thermostat each time as it stopped air moving (the hole to allow air through has to be oriented correctly on a level engine, not many boats are that level). And due to a prior leak someone had stuck a rubber bung down one of the skin tank bleeders preventing bleeding of air as well as the leak. That defeated two engineers and me for 12 months. Telltale was thread tape on bleed bung, should not have been there.

Happy hunting
Chris

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keel cooling question 18 Oct 2021 17:48 #126342

  • Balliol Fowden
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You might be able to see the cooling tank and calculate a rough approximation as to the volume.

However the question really is whether coolant is expanding out, and you say that you see nothing in the bilge. If there is antifreeze in the coolant it will not be evaporating so you should be able to see it. Spilt antifreeze solution never goes away!

There is usually an overflow hose from the manicoler pressure cap. Try running that into an old bottle and see / measure what comes out when you run up from cold to hot. Check the area of the hose end to see if there is any streaking on adjacent parts suggestive of water running out.

If you have a calorifier elsewhere in the boat then don't forget to check the hoses to this and the coil connections on the cylinder. If the final connections are leaking then the leakage could be tracking away behind the cylinder insulation It wlll all be the same water to the coil.

There is a good chance that air in the system is the culprit. Check that all hoses rise or fall smoothly with no loops that trap air. Check that the cooling tank itself is properly bled. Beta engine cooling connections are often poorly designed and plumbed such that air cannot just rise out of the system to the manicooler and header tank.

Balliol.

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keel cooling question 18 Oct 2021 16:10 #126340

  • Lesley Carr
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Hi Andrew. That is very helpful and interesting. Thank you. Can you remember how you found out about the capacity of the cooling system on Decize? I have been trawling the internet and not found a useful manual - mainly I think because I don't know what system we have or what to looks like!nWork in progress.

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keel cooling question 18 Oct 2021 14:23 #126335

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Hi Lesley
I had a similar problem on our Piper boat Decize. System has a pair on interconnected tanks built on to the hull base, I estimated the volume as 600L. calculated the expansion as between 5 and 6L. As the plastic 'header' bottle fitted to the engine only holds 2L max, designed and fitted a 7.5L expansion tank in its place. This has stopped our problem, but I still have a tube form the relief cap connected to bottle just to check the thermostatic valve is still functioning. Determining the volume in your system is, I think, the first step you need to take.
I am not surprised that you cannot determine where your losses/leakage is occuring, I found that the ambient temperature in the engine bay could make a difference to the amount you see.

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keel cooling question 17 Oct 2021 21:06 #126325

  • Lesley Carr
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Hi again

As we have a Beta Marine engine I think we have a cooling system like the one described here. betamarine.co.uk/keel-cooling-calculations/

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keel cooling question 17 Oct 2021 19:23 #126323

  • Lesley Carr
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Hi Chris

Than you for all these ideas. We are not on board at the moment and I am trying to go through a good logical problem solving process to make it easier to start the checks when we get back.

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keel cooling question 17 Oct 2021 19:22 #126322

  • Lesley Carr
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Thank you for your questions - I know need to find out the answers! I will get back to you as soon as I know - the level seems to go down even when the engine isn't running.
I can say for sure that there is antifreeze in the coolant!

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keel cooling question 17 Oct 2021 08:15 #126312

  • Paul Hayes
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Hello Lesley

A couple of questions.

Do you have one or two engine cooling circuit, e.g. the primary being contained in the engine, and the secondary in the keel system?

Does the loss happen only when the engine is running hot?

Is there antifreeze in the coolant?

Paul Hayes

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keel cooling question 16 Oct 2021 23:50 #126311

  • Chris Rowling
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Hi Lesley

Skin tanks? Can have large air pockets after changing coolant that give appearance of leak (> 12 litres in one of mine after change).

Is the engine oil ok? Seems unlikely at 8 years that head gasket could go but easy check.

If losing a lot perhaps swap to propylene glycol (find red stuff) to help find leak and much less toxic to you and canal. Also can buy cheaply in bulk as hydronic coolant (does not have all the inhibitors that engine glycols do) while tracking down.

Good hunting!
Chris

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keel cooling question 16 Oct 2021 22:51 #126310

  • Lesley Carr
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A different aspect of keel cooling. We have a leak in our cooling system. This is obvious from the number of times and amount of coolant we need to top up. But nothing is appearing in the bilge. Any thoughts? It’s an 8 year old boat, out the water a year ago for blacking and no damage, and no knowledge of hitting anything below the waterline since. Confused! Any ideas?

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keel cooling question 09 Jun 2011 10:39 #27862

  • Chris Green
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On Thu, Jun 09, 2011 at 01:19:22AM -0700, Nick Millar wrote:
> When designing the keel cooling I contacted a very helpful man called Boy van
> Gemert who specialises in older DAF engines and worked in the marine
> division of DAF in Holland.
>
> He calculated an area of 1.8m2 for a 132hp/2100rpm
>
> to quote from his e-mail:
> heat to be transferred to coolant with Keelcooling 87w (75000kcal/h)
> water pump discharge 185ltr/min
> Min temp drop 7deg. C
> Min cooling area 1.8m2
>
> I of course achieved this with a swim tank but if done as pipe it would be
> 12m of 50mm diameter.
>
We've nothing like this much, I'd guess around 5 metres at most of 50mm
diameter, for our OM312 and (as I have already said) it's well overcooled.

Our boat is quite small for the OM312 though so maybe it's simply down
to the engine never having to work too hard.

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keel cooling question 09 Jun 2011 09:19 #27859

  • Nick Millar
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When designing the keel cooling I contacted a very helpful man called Boy van
Gemert who specialises in older DAF engines and worked in the marine
division of DAF in Holland.

He calculated an area of 1.8m2 for a 132hp/2100rpm

to quote from his e-mail:
heat to be transferred to coolant with Keelcooling 87w (75000kcal/h)
water pump discharge 185ltr/min
Min temp drop 7deg. C
Min cooling area 1.8m2

I of course achieved this with a swim tank but if done as pipe it would be
12m of 50mm diameter.

I will take the head off the engine and inspect all the cylinders and
linings reassemble and if it is still a problem I will scratch my head some
and design a new keelcooler.

Nick

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keel cooling question 09 Jun 2011 09:11 #27858

  • Colin Stone
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Balliol,
Sorry - that assumes underway most of the time. At 0 knots area goes up to around 3m2. So 4HP/ft is in between.
My area is approx 2.4m2, so apparently only good for 100Hp. In practice temp only begins to rise if we loiter for a long time waiting for a lock etc. If we've waited that long, it is time to stop and have a beer!

Colin Stone

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keel cooling question 08 Jun 2011 19:27 #27851

  • Balliol Fowden
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Are you sure that figure is right? I've always worked on 1 sq. ft. (say 0.1
sq. mtr) per 4 HP, which coincidentally the likes of Barrus agree with.
Coincidentally also, it fits with the keel cooling pipes we used to have on
"Actief", which were about 18 metres long ( inc. bends) which equates to
about 2.8 sq. mtrs = 28 sq.ft = 112 HP which is just over what my Daf is;
even well painted / corroded they cooled the engine about right (i.e. if we
added mussels to the menu the temperature used to edge up if run hard for
long).

It all makes Blokland box coolers seem very easy though!

Balliol.

Original Message
From: "Colin Stone" <crmstone at gmail.com>
To: <dbamain at lists.shire.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 4:33 PM
Subject: Re: DBAm: keel cooling question


> Balliol,
> I'm not saying my comments are the best solution, but a thin horizontal
> baffled tank should work OK. My engine installation manual discusses both
> horizontal and vertical baffled tank with water cell max height 20mm and
> bleeding from each cell.
>
> A thin baffled vertical tank with HW going in at the top and colder water
> leaving the bottom will take advantage of the changing water density and
> max temp gradient across the 2 liquids and be a better solution.
>
> For a 120bhp engine approx 135 MJ/hr need to be dissipated. With a 8kt top
> speed and 20C water, an area of 0.6m2 should be OK.
>
> My keel coolers are completely different and consist of long horizontal
> baffled boxes, approx 2m long. 4 for the engine and 2 slightly shorter for
> the generator. This pic is 2 engine boxes inboard and genny outboard.
> Other 2 engine boxes are on stbd side.
>
> www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk/steel/page/image34.html
>
> Colin Stone
>
> Sent via BlackBerry Internet Service
>
>
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keel cooling question 08 Jun 2011 16:33 #27846

  • Colin Stone
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Balliol,
I'm not saying my comments are the best solution, but a thin horizontal baffled tank should work OK. My engine installation manual discusses both horizontal and vertical baffled tank with water cell max height 20mm and bleeding from each cell.

A thin baffled vertical tank with HW going in at the top and colder water leaving the bottom will take advantage of the changing water density and max temp gradient across the 2 liquids and be a better solution.

For a 120bhp engine approx 135 MJ/hr need to be dissipated. With a 8kt top speed and 20C water, an area of 0.6m2 should be OK.

My keel coolers are completely different and consist of long horizontal baffled boxes, approx 2m long. 4 for the engine and 2 slightly shorter for the generator. This pic is 2 engine boxes inboard and genny outboard. Other 2 engine boxes are on stbd side.

www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk/steel/page/image34.html

Colin Stone

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keel cooling question 08 Jun 2011 13:34 #27840

  • Balliol Fowden
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Colin, Nick, at a glance that looks like we have two opposing opinions but I
don't think so. In Colin's interpretation the use of baffles to promote a
flow path is logical and sensible. The fact is that I wouldn't have started
there, I would have put the tank in the side. The other concern is that
accepting Colin's tank design parameters, does not the increased flow path,
incorporating perhaps 180 degree bends, cause further flow restrictions for
the pump to overcome.

A schematic of the system could be useful because I am still wondering
whether, if the header tank is open and obviously above the engine, is the
flow water simply piling up into that as the easier course than going down
to the tank, presumably drawing compensating air in elsewhere until you
switch off and the water runs back down to its proper place? All wild
theorising really!

Balliol.

From: "Colin Stone" <crmstone at gmail.com>
To: <dbamain at lists.shire.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: DBAm: keel cooling question


> Nick,
>>The tank is about 6" deep at the aft end and 3" deep at the forward end.
>
> I reckon that is rather too "deep". The water should be no deeper than an
> inch from any cooled surface. Eg a 2inch or so diameter pipe or 6mm
> plate/19mm water gap/6mm plate. There shouid also be baffling to increase
> the length of the water path.
>
> Colin Stone
>
> Sent via BlackBerry Internet Service
>
>
> --
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keel cooling question 08 Jun 2011 13:00 #27839

  • Balliol Fowden
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Another problem with tanks in the bottom (apart from actually fanning hot
water down to them) is that in the limited depth available there is little
space for a good temperature gradient. A swim tank in the side has a very
definite temperature gradient from top to bottom: you put hot water in at
the top and it comes out cold at the bottom. The gradient is so obvious and
layered that we never felt (or found) the need to incorporate any form of
baffles or other devices to vary the natural circulation of the water. But
in such a shallow tank you could easily be drawing water out from the same
level as the hot water layers at, reducing the efficiency greatly.

However I tend to agree that the tank might not be the immediate problem and
you need to establish that you have no compression leakage into the system.
A drawing of the system might be useful.

Balliol.

Original Message
From: "Nick Millar" <info at laika.plus.com>
To: <dbamain at lists.shire.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: DBAm: keel cooling question


> Again thanks for all the comments. Having tested further I am certain now
> that air in the system is not the issue. I am concerned about the design
> of
> the tank but I can not see any logical explanation for the problem I have.
> I
> have just one tank which as was suggested is under the engine with the
> flow
> from the engine going in the aft end port side and coming back to the
> engine
> from the forward end starboard side. The tank is about 6" deep at the aft
> end and 3" deep at the forward end. I checked at the time the surface area
> I
> needed for cooling and it is slightly more than specified. The pipe runs
> to
> the tank are 1.5m and return 2.8m. There are no baffles in the tank.
>
> The coolant is flowing and the thermostat is working and the tank is free
> of
> air. I am beginning to fear that it is combustion gas as I can not see
> what
> else could be driving the coolant out. I have an engineer coming at the
> end
> of the week and we will discuss the issues and possibly re do the cylinder
> head gasket as there is a chance that a small leak here could create this
> problem.
>
> I will let you know if I find a solution.
>
> Thanks
>
> Nick
>
>
>
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keel cooling question 08 Jun 2011 12:52 #27838

  • Colin Stone
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Nick,
>The tank is about 6" deep at the aft end and 3" deep at the forward end.

I reckon that is rather too "deep". The water should be no deeper than an inch from any cooled surface. Eg a 2inch or so diameter pipe or 6mm plate/19mm water gap/6mm plate. There shouid also be baffling to increase the length of the water path.

Colin Stone

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keel cooling question 08 Jun 2011 12:09 #27835

  • Gordon Mackenzie
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There is a test kit available i believe its a bit like litmus paper you dip it
into the coolant and it shows up any oil or contaminents, that are leaking in
from the cylinders not 100% sure if thats how it works, but worth a look.

Gordon




________________________________
From: Nick Millar <info at laika.plus.com>
To: dbamain at lists.shire.net
Sent: Wednesday, 8 June, 2011 9:12:32
Subject: Re: DBAm: keel cooling question

Again thanks for all the comments. Having tested further I am certain now
that air in the system is not the issue. I am concerned about the design of
the tank but I can not see any logical explanation for the problem I have. I
have just one tank which as was suggested is under the engine with the flow
from the engine going in the aft end port side and coming back to the engine
from the forward end starboard side. The tank is about 6" deep at the aft
end and 3" deep at the forward end. I checked at the time the surface area I
needed for cooling and it is slightly more than specified. The pipe runs to
the tank are 1.5m and return 2.8m. There are no baffles in the tank.

The coolant is flowing and the thermostat is working and the tank is free of
air. I am beginning to fear that it is combustion gas as I can not see what
else could be driving the coolant out. I have an engineer coming at the end
of the week and we will discuss the issues and possibly re do the cylinder
head gasket as there is a chance that a small leak here could create this
problem.

I will let you know if I find a solution.

Thanks

Nick



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keel cooling question 08 Jun 2011 09:12 #27833

  • Nick Millar
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Again thanks for all the comments. Having tested further I am certain now
that air in the system is not the issue. I am concerned about the design of
the tank but I can not see any logical explanation for the problem I have. I
have just one tank which as was suggested is under the engine with the flow
from the engine going in the aft end port side and coming back to the engine
from the forward end starboard side. The tank is about 6" deep at the aft
end and 3" deep at the forward end. I checked at the time the surface area I
needed for cooling and it is slightly more than specified. The pipe runs to
the tank are 1.5m and return 2.8m. There are no baffles in the tank.

The coolant is flowing and the thermostat is working and the tank is free of
air. I am beginning to fear that it is combustion gas as I can not see what
else could be driving the coolant out. I have an engineer coming at the end
of the week and we will discuss the issues and possibly re do the cylinder
head gasket as there is a chance that a small leak here could create this
problem.

I will let you know if I find a solution.

Thanks

Nick



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keel cooling question 07 Jun 2011 16:26 #27810

  • Chris Green
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On Tue, Jun 07, 2011 at 06:42:04AM -0700, Paul wrote:
>
> The water in the keel tanks is directed by baffles in a labyrinth pattern,
> across, turn though 180 degrees, across, turn, again and again.
>
That's surely *way* overcooled. Our OM312 (around 90bhp) just has about
three or four meters of 2" diameter pipe under the boat, there are no
"tanks" at all and no extra attempt to transfer heat.

Even with just this much cooling the engine is well overcooled.

For a picture see:-
zbmc.eu/tmp/dscf3538.jpg

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keel cooling question 07 Jun 2011 14:42 #27807

  • Paul Hayes
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Hi Nick

I have 85hp (which I have worked quite hard at times) in a similar sized
boat. With the engine temp at 80 degrees the two keel tanks (linked in
series) never get hot to the touch at "engine return", at best "luke warm".
The thermostat must be just opening enough to maintain 80 degree engine
temperature. The header tank is quite small, approximately 5 litre. The
whole system I calculate to be in the region of 100 to 120 litres.

The water in the keel tanks is directed by baffles in a labyrinth pattern,
across, turn though 180 degrees, across, turn, again and again.

Given the information that you provide, I wonder if your tanks allow a
"short circuit" so that the actual water circulating is far lower in volume
than the 200 litre capacity. This could lead to "stratification" of cold
and hot water in the keel tanks, with a small quantity of water getting very
hot,hence the expansion, whilst the larger remaining volume staying
"stagnant" at river temperature.

Just a though, hope this helps,

Paul

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keel cooling question 04 Jun 2011 12:31 #27711

  • Balliol Fowden
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I think it all depends upon particular design circumstances: how long and/or
how tortuous the pipe routes are, undulations in the system etc. The simple
fact is that many installations ask more of the centrifugal circulator than
it was designed to cope with. Pipes may, subject to design, aid circulation
if thermosyphon principles can work, but so does a properly installed plain
swim cooling tank.

Balliol.

Original Message
From: "Gordon Mackenzie" <cncmove at btopenworld.com>
To: <DBAMAIN at LISTS.SHIRE.NET>
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2011 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: DBAm: keel cooling question


> Balliol wrote
> but I have come across similar problems before with narrow
> boats where the tank has been installed in the bottom of the boat under
> the
> engine. This causes a number of problems, not all relevant in this case
> but
> one is that the fan type automotive circulator will struggle to pump hot
> water downhill, particularly at low revs. It is designed to swish water
> round through a radiator mounted at roughly the same level as the block,
> in
> effect aiding thermosyphon, not working against it.
>
>
> Hi Balliol
> My cooling pipes exit the hull about engine block/sump height then go
> below that
> level outside the hull, touch wood i have never had any cooling problems
> and the
> standard pump seems to cope ok, maybe the difference is between a tank and
> pipes, see the picture from last year at Strand on the Green for a bottom
> scrub.
>
>
> picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Ppy7LjbgPOp71qq_TmPfag?feat=directlink
>
> Regards
> Gordon Mackenzie
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>> --
>> _____________________________________________
>
>
> --
> and
> sell barges or equipment.
>
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keel cooling question 04 Jun 2011 11:30 #27709

  • Gordon Mackenzie
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Balliol wrote
but I have come across similar problems before with narrow
boats where the tank has been installed in the bottom of the boat under the
engine. This causes a number of problems, not all relevant in this case but
one is that the fan type automotive circulator will struggle to pump hot
water downhill, particularly at low revs. It is designed to swish water
round through a radiator mounted at roughly the same level as the block, in
effect aiding thermosyphon, not working against it.


Hi Balliol
My cooling pipes exit the hull about engine block/sump height then go below that
level outside the hull, touch wood i have never had any cooling problems and the
standard pump seems to cope ok, maybe the difference is between a tank and
pipes, see the picture from last year at Strand on the Green for a bottom scrub.


picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Ppy7LjbgPOp71qq_TmPfag?feat=directlink

Regards
Gordon Mackenzie




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> --
> _____________________________________________


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keel cooling question 03 Jun 2011 21:33 #27685

  • Balliol Fowden
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Nick,

I think your yard may be introducing a red herring. As far as I recall all
Dafs have dry liners; my 615 certainly has as do 1160's, 475's & 575's.
leaking liner seal or even a split liner should not affect the cooling
system. My recent comments and/or the suggestions in respect of trapped air
are the most likely culprits.

Balliol.

Original Message
From: "Colin Stone" <crmstone at gmail.com>
To: <dbamain at lists.shire.net>
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: DBAm: keel cooling question


> Nick,
> I'm not familiar with DAF 825s - but I assume that they might be wet
> linered. On the old TR4a a leaky liner gasket would do the same - luckily
> mine didn't.
>
> Colin Stone
>
> Sent via BlackBerry Internet Service
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> dba-the-barge-association.222578.n4.nabble.com/keel-cooling-question-tp3569437p3571946.html
> at Nabble.com.
> --
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keel cooling question 03 Jun 2011 21:21 #27684

  • Balliol Fowden
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I'm afraid these sorts of problem are all too common and result from the
adaption of narrow boat technology to barges with much larger engines.
Narrow boat builders still struggle to come to terms with the necessary
thermal transmission area for a 40 HP diesel and build boats with cooling
tanks that are too small. Because barges are being commonly fitted with 130
HP + the cooling tanks are becoming too big to accommodate easily without
using twin tanks inn series (never good) or bottom tanks, all of which
introduce their own set of problems.

The best answer, if you really don't want raw water / heat exchanger/ wet
exhaust (which can be absolutely fine if properly designed and installed) is
to fit a Blokland closed circuit box cooler. These are compact, very
efficient, and minimise the water volumes involved, hence expansion and the
quantity of antifreeze needed.

Thinking about the problem outlined by Nick Millar, I don't quite understand
his reference to "skeg or swim." I wonder whether the cooling tank is
perhaps below the engine, requiring the standard automotive circulator to
pump hot water downwards. I'm only theorising since I haven't seen the
installation, but I have come across similar problems before with narrow
boats where the tank has been installed in the bottom of the boat under the
engine. This causes a number of problems, not all relevant in this case but
one is that the fan type automotive circulator will struggle to pump hot
water downhill, particularly at low revs. It is designed to swish water
round through a radiator mounted at roughly the same level as the block, in
effect aiding thermosyphon, not working against it. Whilst I note that the
engine is not overheating another comment made already may link in, viz.
that the hot water may take the easiest course.

Balliol.

Original Message
From: "John Booker" <john at legalweb.org.uk>
To: <DBAMAIN at LISTS.SHIRE.NET>
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 8:01 PM
Subject: Re: DBAm: keel cooling question


> Nick,
>
> I own a Piper replica which was new last year and both mine and it's
> sister ship had an issue that was associated with air in the system. The
> solution was tapping the highest point in the coolant circuit for the
> expansion tank feed hose. That done a 2 litre bottle serves well on a
> 120 hp Deutz engine and has expansion of the coolant is hardly
> noticeable as the cooling is so efficient that the total volume does not
> expand to 80 degrees C as has been theorised in the thread, as the
> majority of the volume is little above ambient water temp.
> Regards
>
> John Booker
>
> On 02/06/2011 22:25, Nick Millar wrote:
>> I have just launched our 20m replica dutch barge and am testing out the
>> engine and systems.
>>
>> I designed a keel cooler to use a portion of the skeg or swim as I called
>> it
>> on our canal barge.
>>
>> The total coolant is in the region of 200lt for both the engine and the
>> tank. The engine is a DAF 825.
>>
>> When I run the engine up to temp (80 degrees) it keeps its temperature
>> but
>> over flows the header tank by a considerable amount. I have rigged up
>> another expansion tank so I can see just how much coolant is over flowing
>> and so far after 2 hours under load I have had nearly 15lt come into it.
>> It
>> siphons back into the system when the engine is shut down.
>>
>> I am suprised that there is so much expansion and a bit alarmed and am
>> now
>> questioning the keel cooler design.
>>
>> Can anyone advise if this is normal or if there are any suggestions as to
>> why this should happen.
>>
>> Many thanks
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> dba-the-barge-association.222578.n4.nabble.com/keel-cooling-question-tp3569437p3569437.html
>> at Nabble.com.
>>
>
> --
>
> *John Booker*
>
> --
> _____________________________________________



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keel cooling question 03 Jun 2011 21:14 #27683

  • Colin Stone
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Nick,
I'm not familiar with DAF 825s - but I assume that they might be wet linered. On the old TR4a a leaky liner gasket would do the same - luckily mine didn't.

Colin Stone

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keel cooling question 03 Jun 2011 21:03 #27682

  • Nick Millar
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sorry I meant the latter. I don't really want to take the linings out and
replace but if i do it will be yet another thing I know how to do.

Nick

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keel cooling question 03 Jun 2011 21:00 #27681

  • Nick Millar
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Thank you everyone for your suggestions.

I have re checked for air and found a bit still in the system. I will give
it another run this weekend and see what happens.

Another suggestion from engineers around the yard I am in is the possibility
of a fracture in one or more of the cylinder linings which only opens when
hot and allows a small amount of gas into the coolant system every
revolution.

I hope it is not the former but I will let people know what the out come is
when I eventually work it out.

Nick

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keel cooling question 03 Jun 2011 20:01 #27680

  • John Booker
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Nick,

I own a Piper replica which was new last year and both mine and it's
sister ship had an issue that was associated with air in the system. The
solution was tapping the highest point in the coolant circuit for the
expansion tank feed hose. That done a 2 litre bottle serves well on a
120 hp Deutz engine and has expansion of the coolant is hardly
noticeable as the cooling is so efficient that the total volume does not
expand to 80 degrees C as has been theorised in the thread, as the
majority of the volume is little above ambient water temp.
Regards

John Booker

On 02/06/2011 22:25, Nick Millar wrote:
> I have just launched our 20m replica dutch barge and am testing out the
> engine and systems.
>
> I designed a keel cooler to use a portion of the skeg or swim as I called it
> on our canal barge.
>
> The total coolant is in the region of 200lt for both the engine and the
> tank. The engine is a DAF 825.
>
> When I run the engine up to temp (80 degrees) it keeps its temperature but
> over flows the header tank by a considerable amount. I have rigged up
> another expansion tank so I can see just how much coolant is over flowing
> and so far after 2 hours under load I have had nearly 15lt come into it. It
> siphons back into the system when the engine is shut down.
>
> I am suprised that there is so much expansion and a bit alarmed and am now
> questioning the keel cooler design.
>
> Can anyone advise if this is normal or if there are any suggestions as to
> why this should happen.
>
> Many thanks
>
> Nick
>
> --
> View this message in context: dba-the-barge-association.222578.n4.nabble.com/keel-cooling-question-tp3569437p3569437.html
>

--

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keel cooling question 03 Jun 2011 17:41 #27675

  • Mark Hughes
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Nick
I have come across this before on replica barge with two keel tanks, one
either side of the boat. Not sure about the volume but fairly large. The
problem I think was that the two tanks were connected at bottom with with
the inlet to one side and the outlet to the other. When motoring hard one
side would heat up and the other stayed cold. The hot water raising and
becomming trapped on one side. The solution would of been to join the two
tanks from the top of one to the bottom of the other. This caused the
symtoms you describe, the header tank overflowing when steaming fast.
I expect in your case the problem is similar with cooling water taking the
route of less resitance. If the engine is not overheating I would fit a
bigger header tank.
Regards
Mark

On 2 June 2011 22:23, Nick Millar <info at laika.plus.com> wrote:

> I have just launched our 20m replica dutch barge and am testing out the
> engine and systems.
>
> I designed a keel cooler to use a portion of the skeg or swim as I called
> it
> on our canal barge.
>
> The total coolant is in the region of 200lt for both the engine and the
> tank. The engine is a DAF 825.
>
> When I run the engine up to temp (80 degrees) it keeps its temperature but
> over flows the header tank by a considerable amount. I have rigged up
> another expansion tank so I can see just how much coolant is over flowing
> and so far after 2 hours under load I have had nearly 15lt come into it. It
> siphons back into the system when the engine is shut down.
>
> I am suprised that there is so much expansion and a bit alarmed and am now
> questioning the keel cooler design.
>
> Can anyone advise if this is normal or if there are any suggestions as to
> why this should happen.
>
> Many thanks
>
> Nick
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> dba-the-barge-association.222578.n4.nabble.com/keel-cooling-question-tp3569434p3569434.html
> Nabble.com.
>
> --
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>

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keel cooling question 03 Jun 2011 13:39 #27657

  • Colin Stone
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>Dare I suggest you lack cooling area or vol?

No - the engine is not overheating. If the expansion was caused by overheating/boiling over it would be much more explosive. A lack of area may become apparent if loitering for some time with no flow past the vessel. My Daewoo installation manual specifies area required for various operating scenarios.

Colin Stone

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keel cooling question 03 Jun 2011 10:01 #27644

  • Peter Nott
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have you bled all the air out of it?

On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 11:23 PM, Nick Millar <info at laika.plus.com> wrote:

> I have just launched our 20m replica dutch barge and am testing out the
> engine and systems.
>
> I designed a keel cooler to use a portion of the skeg or swim as I called
> it
> on our canal barge.
>
> The total coolant is in the region of 200lt for both the engine and the
> tank. The engine is a DAF 825.
>
> When I run the engine up to temp (80 degrees) it keeps its temperature but
> over flows the header tank by a considerable amount. I have rigged up
> another expansion tank so I can see just how much coolant is over flowing
> and so far after 2 hours under load I have had nearly 15lt come into it. It
> siphons back into the system when the engine is shut down.
>
> I am suprised that there is so much expansion and a bit alarmed and am now
> questioning the keel cooler design.
>
> Can anyone advise if this is normal or if there are any suggestions as to
> why this should happen.
>
> Many thanks
>
> Nick
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> dba-the-barge-association.222578.n4.nabble.com/keel-cooling-question-tp3569434p3569434.html
> Nabble.com.
>
> --
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>

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keel cooling question 03 Jun 2011 09:53 #27642

  • Colin Stone
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Nick,

In that case, I would reckon on some air in the system. Have you got bleed
valves at all likely places??

Colin Stone

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keel cooling question 03 Jun 2011 09:43 #27640

  • Gordon Mackenzie
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My thought is it could be air, can you vent to the top of the keel cooler , I am assuming that any air trapped is going to expand far greater than h2o

Regards
Gordon

On 3 Jun 2011, at 09:35, Nick Millar <info at laika.plus.com> wrote:

> I did check what the expected expansion would be and as you say Colin it
> should be around 3lt at those temperatures hence my concern at getting
> around 15lt. I have felt all the pipes and it appears to be working properly
> i.e. no flow to keel cooler till 80 degrees is reached and then flow begins
> with send hot and return cooler and engine maintaining 80 degrees.
>
> Any other suggestions? Could it be air in the system or another thought was
> that the circulation pump was pushing some of the coolant back into the
> header tank once the system became pressurised by the heat?
>
> At the moment a bit baffled.
>
> Nick
>
> --
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>
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keel cooling question 03 Jun 2011 09:35 #27638

  • Nick Millar
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I did check what the expected expansion would be and as you say Colin it
should be around 3lt at those temperatures hence my concern at getting
around 15lt. I have felt all the pipes and it appears to be working properly
i.e. no flow to keel cooler till 80 degrees is reached and then flow begins
with send hot and return cooler and engine maintaining 80 degrees.

Any other suggestions? Could it be air in the system or another thought was
that the circulation pump was pushing some of the coolant back into the
header tank once the system became pressurised by the heat?

At the moment a bit baffled.

Nick

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keel cooling question 03 Jun 2011 08:46 #27637

  • Colin Stone
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By my calcs, and this site -
www.engineeringtoolbox.com/volumetric-temperature-expansion-d_315.html

200 litres should expand by 2.52 litres when heated from 20C to 80C. In my
keel cooling system the level rises in my header tank by approx 2 - 3 l from
cold to hot. I did have a larger header tank fitted, mainly because the
engine room calorifier originally fed by the engine was above the engine
header tank.

www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk/internal/page/image43.html


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keel cooling question 03 Jun 2011 08:26 #27636

  • Chris Green
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>
> The total coolant is in the region of 200lt for both the engine and the
> tank. The engine is a DAF 825.
>
That seems quite a lot, our (approx 100BHP) OM312 has about 45 litres of
coolant total in the engine, keel cooling and header tank.


> When I run the engine up to temp (80 degrees) it keeps its temperature but
> over flows the header tank by a considerable amount. I have rigged up
> another expansion tank so I can see just how much coolant is over flowing
> and so far after 2 hours under load I have had nearly 15lt come into it. It
> siphons back into the system when the engine is shut down.
>
The header tank on ours is around 5 litres, when cold there is just an
inch or so of coolant in the bottom (it's shaped similar to a 5 litre
can of engine oil, taller than wide).


> I am suprised that there is so much expansion and a bit alarmed and am now
> questioning the keel cooler design.
>
> Can anyone advise if this is normal or if there are any suggestions as to
> why this should happen.
>
I guess, compared with ours, it's similar. Our 45 litres of coolant
needs a 5 litre header tank so on a proportional basis your 200 litres
of coolant needs a 20 litre header tank.

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keel cooling question 03 Jun 2011 05:56 #27633

  • Laurel Cooper
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I am no engineer, but when I installed keel cooliing on Hosanna's centre engine (Perkins 4236, that is 4 cyl and 236 cu in swept vol) I was advised that the water vol should be greater than you think and the cooling contact area likewise.
We had 2. galv steel 2" pipes, each 20 ft long either side of the shallow keel
I make the internal pipe vol 10 cu ft to which add a bit for leading and header.
We had no expansion tank.
We had no problems.
Dare I suggest you lack cooling area or vol?
Bil C
Original Message
From: Nick Millar
Sender: dbamain-bounces at lists.shire.net
To: Dba
ReplyTo: Dba
Subject: DBAm: keel cooling question
Sent: 2 Jun 2011 22:25

I have just launched our 20m replica dutch barge and am testing out the
engine and systems.

I designed a keel cooler to use a portion of the skeg or swim as I called it
on our canal barge.

The total coolant is in the region of 200lt for both the engine and the
tank. The engine is a DAF 825.

When I run the engine up to temp (80 degrees) it keeps its temperature but
over flows the header tank by a considerable amount. I have rigged up
another expansion tank so I can see just how much coolant is over flowing
and so far after 2 hours under load I have had nearly 15lt come into it. It
siphons back into the system when the engine is shut down.

I am suprised that there is so much expansion and a bit alarmed and am now
questioning the keel cooler design.

Can anyone advise if this is normal or if there are any suggestions as to
why this should happen.

Many thanks

Nick

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keel cooling question 02 Jun 2011 22:56 #27632

  • Tim Fretwell
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Nick,

we launched our 17.3 Euroship replica new in 2008 with a keel-cooled John
Deere 6.8litre normally aspirated engine. Your problem if I read you
correctly, in that the content of the header tank discharges though the
engine pressure cap at working temperature is the exact same problem that we
have always had. In the end I have decided that having been unable thus far
to cure this problem and after 700 hours, during which the header tank has
been empty and the engine has never overheated (even under heavy load for
two hours) to leave things as they are.

I would be very interested to know if you manage to eliminate the problem
though?

Good luck with it.

Tim
M.V Angell Hardy ll
Original Message
From: "Nick Millar" <info at laika.plus.com>
To: <dbamain at lists.shire.net>
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2011 10:25 PM
Subject: DBAm: keel cooling question


>I have just launched our 20m replica dutch barge and am testing out the
> engine and systems.
>
> I designed a keel cooler to use a portion of the skeg or swim as I called
> it
> on our canal barge.
>
> The total coolant is in the region of 200lt for both the engine and the
> tank. The engine is a DAF 825.
>
> When I run the engine up to temp (80 degrees) it keeps its temperature but
> over flows the header tank by a considerable amount. I have rigged up
> another expansion tank so I can see just how much coolant is over flowing
> and so far after 2 hours under load I have had nearly 15lt come into it.
> It
> siphons back into the system when the engine is shut down.
>
> I am suprised that there is so much expansion and a bit alarmed and am now
> questioning the keel cooler design.
>
> Can anyone advise if this is normal or if there are any suggestions as to
> why this should happen.
>
> Many thanks
>
> Nick
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> dba-the-barge-association.222578.n4.nabble.com/keel-cooling-question-tp3569437p3569437.html
> at Nabble.com.
>
> --
> _____________________________________________





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keel cooling question 02 Jun 2011 22:25 #27631

  • Nick Millar
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I have just launched our 20m replica dutch barge and am testing out the
engine and systems.

I designed a keel cooler to use a portion of the skeg or swim as I called it
on our canal barge.

The total coolant is in the region of 200lt for both the engine and the
tank. The engine is a DAF 825.

When I run the engine up to temp (80 degrees) it keeps its temperature but
over flows the header tank by a considerable amount. I have rigged up
another expansion tank so I can see just how much coolant is over flowing
and so far after 2 hours under load I have had nearly 15lt come into it. It
siphons back into the system when the engine is shut down.

I am suprised that there is so much expansion and a bit alarmed and am now
questioning the keel cooler design.

Can anyone advise if this is normal or if there are any suggestions as to
why this should happen.

Many thanks

Nick

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keel cooling question 02 Jun 2011 22:23 #27630

  • Nick Millar
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I have just launched our 20m replica dutch barge and am testing out the
engine and systems.

I designed a keel cooler to use a portion of the skeg or swim as I called it
on our canal barge.

The total coolant is in the region of 200lt for both the engine and the
tank. The engine is a DAF 825.

When I run the engine up to temp (80 degrees) it keeps its temperature but
over flows the header tank by a considerable amount. I have rigged up
another expansion tank so I can see just how much coolant is over flowing
and so far after 2 hours under load I have had nearly 15lt come into it. It
siphons back into the system when the engine is shut down.

I am suprised that there is so much expansion and a bit alarmed and am now
questioning the keel cooler design.

Can anyone advise if this is normal or if there are any suggestions as to
why this should happen.

Many thanks

Nick

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