Problems ??

If you have a problem using the Forum please tell us! Email: IT@barges.org.

BARGES: All about barges and barging - building, buying, maintaining, equipment, handling on the water, etc. (Public)
For technical advice, please include as much detail as possible about the intended use and/or current equipment, e.g. models, types, sizes, use, age of items. Pictures are also useful.

Winterising Problem.

  • Paul Hayes
More
12 Nov 2023 08:43 #1 by Paul Hayes
Replied by Paul Hayes on topic Winterising Problem.
Hi Ray

The "hose to outlet" solution does work.

I've also modified a few cooling circuits on different boats, especially with water cooled air conditioning. This modification is as follows.

Install a brass  Tee (of compatible size)with ball valves on each opening into the pipeline somewhere between the seacock and equipment.

The normal flow is straight through the Tee.
       3
1 ___!___ 2
                    3
At the x ___!___.  Put a mail hosepipe snap fitting. Note when not adding antifreeze the snap fitting should be removed and this thread should be capped with a brass cap  flooding if the valve is accidentally opened.

A simple 5 litre garden spray is then modified to a ½" BSP outlet, onto this a female snap fitting can be attached.

Process.

Fill Sprayer with appropriate (non toxic) antifreeze. Attach Female snap to male.

Close "equipment" 2 outlet ball valve.
Open "seacock" 1 ball valve.

Pressurise spray, open "spay" 3 ball valve.

Antifreeze will flow through the seacock, close sea cock (NOT 1)

Close "seacock" valve 1  Open "equipment" valve.2

Continue pumping Sprayer until antifreeze is seen being ejected overboard.

Close "spray" valve, 2 open "seacock valve" 1

The whole system is thus full of antifreeze.

This is especially useful for air conditioning systems where the water pump has to be located below river water level as they don't self prime.

Paul Hayes 
The following user(s) said Thank You: Ray Zdanowicz, Chris Rowling, Dietmar Ristl

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • Ray Zdanowicz
  • Topic Author
More
11 Nov 2023 18:39 #2 by Ray Zdanowicz
Replied by Ray Zdanowicz on topic Winterising Problem.
Balliol

I may have misled you. The inlet is a on standpipe about 18" below the waterline near the keel but the stopcock is directly above, in the engine room just maybe 1 or 2 inches below the waterline. I don't think the AF will flow down in that situation as the pressure is positive. I think I will attach a hose with a funnel to the filter outlet and raise it above the waterline and then try as you suggest and percolate some neat AF down the tube to mix with the raw water.  

Ray

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • Colin Stone
More
11 Nov 2023 17:34 #3 by Colin Stone
Replied by Colin Stone on topic Winterising Problem.
I put stainless steel ball valves from BES (bes.co.uk), 1/2" to 11/2" BSP, full of water into a - 18C deep freeze and for several freeze thaw cycles a good few years ago.  They were completely unaffected. 

Colin Stone
It's not the destination, it's the glory of the ride.
Barge Register KEI
The following user(s) said Thank You: Ray Zdanowicz

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • Balliol Fowden
More
11 Nov 2023 15:43 #4 by Balliol Fowden
Replied by Balliol Fowden on topic Winterising Problem.
How long has that inlet existed? Has there been a problem? Are we hypothesising?

To be honest if the valve is about 18” below the water surface it would be a very cold winter for the water at that level to be freezing seriously. You inferred that the inlet was close to the waterline but I would not call 18” close. However I think you are right to be concerned.

Thinking on the hoof, and noting that neat ethylene glycol a/f is somewhat denser than water, what about:

1. Turn off sea cock.
2. Drain out as much water from the strainer and inlet piping as you can.
3. Fill the strainer full with neat ethylene glycol a/f (ethylene glycol is somewhat denser than propylene glycol).
4. Replace lid, open sea clock.

My thinking is that the a/f will percolate or flow down through the valve and/or mingle with the canal water in and around that valve, so leave for half a minute or so to flow/mingle, then close valve and hope for the best. You could perhaps look in the strainer again. If the a/f level has dropped then some must have flowed through the valve so hopefully you caught some in there as you closed it!

Balliol.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • Ray Zdanowicz
  • Topic Author
More
11 Nov 2023 15:12 #5 by Ray Zdanowicz
Replied by Ray Zdanowicz on topic Winterising Problem.
 Balliol

Thank you for the comprehensive reply, if I had the time this year I would certainly carryout a permanent  solution. However I need to solve the issue this coming week  as the boat is in France and I only have a few days to sort it. The boat is in the water and the inlet is close to the keel about 18" below the waterline. I was wondering if I could use compressed air to force the water out of the valve, I don't have a compressor, so maybe some sort of pump would do, what do you think.

Ray

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • Balliol Fowden
More
11 Nov 2023 14:49 #6 by Balliol Fowden
Replied by Balliol Fowden on topic Winterising Problem.
It sounds as if you understand the potential issue with underwater ball valves but for the benefit of those that might not have thought about the potential issues might I explain (it being a pet subject of mine!).

A ball valve is a very efficient valve and is ideal as a sea cock except that unfortunately when an immersed ball valve is closed it will trap a slug or "cylinder" of water within the stainless steel valve ball. If this slug of water freezes it can only expand longitudinally, and it can thus punch a lump out of the side of the valve casing, which on almost all the ball valves you commonly see will be a poor quality and weak cast brass casing. Even though a valve may be described as "stainless steel" this refers to the ball material and the casing is usually brass with silver electroplating). Casing damage may or may not allow water ingress into the boat whilst the valve remains closed but will almost certainly leak once the valve is opened.

Where the valve is installed fairly deep down in the water (say at the keel line) the potential problem is lesser since the water is less likely to freeze at any significant depth, but where the valve is close to the water line, the ice line if you like, frost damage is a very significant risk.

One solution is to fit a much stronger ice resistant ball valve, e.g.  www.pipestock.com/mdpe/valves/ice-valve-...1chn0ZxoC_VYQAvD_BwE

However these plastic valves will not be fire resistant so a small fire could just melt the valve and you will get the same sinking feeling!

Heavy duty stainless steel or bronze cased valves which are frost and fire resistant can be sourced but are very expensive.

For my money both the valve and the strainer should be installed well above the water line. If you have space why not extend the plumbing upwards in galvanised steel piping so that the valve can be installed say 150mm above the waterline. The valve should also if possible be installed in a vertical flow orientation so that water is not trapped in the valve bore when the ball is closed. If your inlet is close below the water line you may be able to reach it from outside and plug it with a wooden plug, or even just a rag, whilst you remove the valve and extend the plumbing upwards. Obviously you need to take great care that you have all the right fittings to hand, and be prepared to perhaps ship a few litres of water whilst you work, but most plumbing (NL/FR/UK) will be BSP threaded and most Bricos will stock a good range of fittings including threaded tube in various lengths so it is not difficult to be prepared. Just don't attempt the job on a Sunday afternoon or 20+ miles from a Brico!

I would never ever fit a valve below the water line if it could possibly be avoided. I would change the engine inlet as well if possible.

Balliol.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Ray Zdanowicz

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • Ray Zdanowicz
  • Topic Author
More
11 Nov 2023 11:22 #7 by Ray Zdanowicz
Winterising Problem. was created by Ray Zdanowicz
Hi

I wonder if I could get some suggestions on how to winterise the ball valve stopcock for the generator on a dutch steel cruiser. The issue is the stopcock and filter is just below the waterline, so i am unable to pour in any antifreeze like I can with the engine raw water filter.

Thanks 

Ray

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Moderators: Bob MarslandPeter Milne
Time to create page: 0.212 seconds