TOPIC: Rhone Speed

Hopefully it is better than the Meuse. We are here in Revin in the Ardennes and the flow is mostly stopped, but on the past few mornings the river has actually been flowing backwards in the upstream direction.

I'm sorry if you have been waiting for words of wisdom 😁 about Rhone speed as I promised, however, the ship I was moving has mechanical problems that require dry docking for repairs.

Therefore the expected trip up the Rhone has been cancelled.

If I get another chance to report on flow rates in the future, I will.

Paul Hayes

Chris Rowling wrote: Hi all
When I run Nigel Orr's factors the results I get are about half of Paul's real life observations. can someone else check as that may give a user a false sense of safety.
Chris

I'm running up The Rhone this month, I'll make observations of conditions and published debits at as many places as possible.

I'll use still water speed of the vessel at a given engine speed as my datums.

This should give a accurate guide as possible at given flow rates, some extrapolation will be required for higher flow rates.

Paul

Hi all
When I run Nigel Orr's factors the results I get are about half of Paul's real life observations. can someone else check as that may give a user a false sense of safety.
Chris

Paul - I concur with that. Full chat is for emergencies only.
Richard

Richard wrote

"the Deutz manual talks of a punitive 30 lts/hr at full throttle..."

That's about right for a 160 h.p. engine.

The saving grace is that you shouldn't be running at full power very much. Find an engine speed that the boat is comfortable with, about 75% fuel rack open and the hourly consumption will be halved and you will still make reasonable headway.

Paul Hayes

Thanks Paul - we'll look to revise and incorporate.

James Newcombe wrote: I'd welcome any comments or corrections on our Rhone conditions page . . .
www.french-waterways.com/practicalities/cruising-conditions/#fw-tab-content-0-3

Hi James
An excellent page in general.

From experience can I make a couple of observations.

1. A typo error 10 kph = 8 knots.
This should be 10 kph = 5.4 knots

2. There are few places for larger barges to stop on route on The Rhone. The majority of ports are geared for 15m boats. Some can take around 20m. But for 25m +, mooring opportunity is rare.

3. When using The Rhone for transit it is quite acceptable to stop overnight at the waiting pontoons or Duc d'Alds at the locks, just ask the lock keepers where they want you, as commercial vessels pass 24 hrs a day.

I've heard it said that you have to feign engine problems to be allowed to overnight at locks, this is untrue.

3. Don't be tempted to moor on "hotel boat" moorings, thinking that they are vacant. They can arrive any time day or night.

4. Lock keepers will allow you to stop on the waiting moorings if river or wind conditions make navigation dangerous.

5.. In my opinion the fastest flow is encountered at the railway bridge at Givors.
Slightly faster than Beaucaire, but not a lot in it. There are pontoons to lie against to wait for the flow rate to abate slightly.

6. One I can't condone 😉 is going upstream at Beaucaire it is easier to pass under the railway bridge on through the downstream channel, i.e. on the wrong side. Care must be taken to see if anything is coming downstream. It's relatively easy to hold station below the bridge to wait for a clear run through the wrong channel. I of course would never do this, preferring the more difficult job of fighting to keep the bow into the flow to prevent the vessel being swung around either to port or starboard.

6. As said earlier in the thread, a debits figure of 800 ish and below is okay for leisure barges at Beaucaire, much above might be a struggle.

7. In the chutes where projections from both banks are indicated on the charts, you MUST stay clear of these often underwater walls.


Paul Hayes

I'd welcome any comments or corrections on our Rhone conditions page . . .
www.french-waterways.com/practicalities/cruising-conditions/#fw-tab-content-0-3

Hi Richard

14 - 15 kph should enable you to make 5 - 6 in the chutes.

How many horses are you feeding?
30 lph would seem to be a Gert big engine.

A 30m we came up in with about a 180 hp used overall 19 lph from Aigues Mortes to Saint Jean de Losne where we bunkered for the second time, so that was about 300km on Rhone and 200 on Saône, with moderately heavy flow.

I'll send you a P.M

Paul Hayes

As a rider to my last, I remember watching a small tug pulling a construction barge under a bridge over the St Lawrence in Montreal. I watched him for at least 10 minutes, and he spent as much time slipping backwards as progressing forwards.

When Stanton Rose finally goes back in the water at Port-Saint-Louis in perhaps 3 weeks, I will be heading back up the Rhône myself. Would that there won't be heavy rains in the catchment prior to this - as diesel is now so expensive! With a clean hull and a newly repaired propeller, she should be good for 14-15 kph in extremis, but the Deutz manual talks of a punitive 30 lts/hr at full throttle...

You’re gonna need this.

Thanks everybody, an obscure reference suggests 8 - 11 KPH after heavy rain. this may be very approximate but feels right to me 8 - 11 KPH it is!

Colin wrote

"Or just drift and read off GPS or smartphone.
I assumed the intention was to remain alongside"

How the glories of modern technology have made navigation so easy 😁.

I assumed that the attempt to stay alongside had failed 😂.

Or just drift and read off GPS or smartphone.

I assumed the intention was to remain alongside!

Colin Stone wrote: Time for Pooh sticks?? Drop in a "dutch log"off Pont de Lattre_de-Tassigny and time it over the short distance down to La Passerelle??

Or put gearbox in neutral and drift between Km markers, time and calculate .

The speed of water below the locks is very much dependant on how many turbines are running. So the flow in the "chutes' is generally higher than in the river proper.

After last week's rains "up country" looking at this morning's debits, the speed should just about be back to normal now.

The forecast is "dry" in Burgundy and The Jura for the next week or more so the flow shouldn't get any quicker.

Paul Hayes

Time for Pooh sticks?? Drop in a "dutch log"off Pont de Lattre_de-Tassigny and time it over the short distance down to La Passerelle??

Apologies

inforhonemobile.cnr.tm.fr/Accueil/Index

The debits (cubic meters per second are updated every 3 hours on

inforhone.fr

A reasonable debit for a leasure barge to come up is around 800 at Beaucaire.

I've done it at 1200 in a 30m barge with 285 hp, down to 1.5 kph under the bridge.

Then again in a Dunkirk Little Ship with two Gardners at a debit of 1800 and we shot the bridge at 5 knots about 9kph. Different hull shape of power to weight ratio.

I know that doesn't help with speed but the barge would reach 13 kph is still water, so take 1½ from it makes about 11 kph with a debit of 1200 at Beaucaire.

Paul Hayes

I don't know if that is published anywhere, but I believe the VNF can provide a measure of it in cubic metres per second! I was moored there on the west bank for a few hours last October, but didn't want to stay overnight on account of the uncomfortable turbulence.

Alongside in Vienne watching the shipping, water, and occasional tree speed past.

Can somebody give me an idea of the speed of the river through town?