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TOPIC: zero VAT status and selling a UK boat in France after Brexit

zero VAT status and selling a UK boat in France after Brexit 26 Oct 2020 09:50 #119261

  • Chris Brant
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Yes I also think that the boat would be considered too old for any VAT refund... It can be brought back legally until 31st December, but at present there does not seem to be any concessions available, even for Covid...

Chris...

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zero VAT status and selling a UK boat in France after Brexit 24 Oct 2020 19:01 #119235

  • Jan Pieterse
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yes currently you can get vat back for goods purchased w/I the 90 day 'visit' time

but I also read this
www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/brexit/vraag-en-antwoord/als-brit-btw-terugvragen-in-europa-na-brexit

showing that IF you move stuff to the UK after Brexit you can get it back
perhaps a call to them ? you have NO....but who knows..
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zero VAT status and selling a UK boat in France after Brexit 24 Oct 2020 17:47 #119233

  • Peter Cawson
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Jan Pieterse wrote: But Chris, then you can get the VAT paid in the EU back,.....since you are exporting the boat


I think a 2018-built boat will be way past its eligibility for VAT-refund export. I had thought of that too until I saw the build date. When non-EU visitors on holiday go on spending sprees, they can claim back the VAT by completing a form at the airport or other exit point but only for unused recently purchased items - as I understand the regulations.

Peter
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zero VAT status and selling a UK boat in France after Brexit 24 Oct 2020 16:59 #119231

  • Jan Pieterse
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But Chris, then you can get the VAT paid in the EU back,.....since you are exporting the boat

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zero VAT status and selling a UK boat in France after Brexit 24 Oct 2020 12:17 #119225

  • Chris Brant
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I had a long chat with the RYA yesterday , Stuart Carruthers - I think- as my boat was new in Holland in 2018, has had EU VAT paid and after commissioning I intended to bring it back to UK this year but Covid cancelled that.
He said the RYA was working on this and feels HMRC are not being reasonable, and hopes to get a definitive response in the next 2-3 weeks. However his advice was that to be completely safe, at present, my boat ought to be in the UK on 31st December.
Not what I wanted to hear but as my boat has never been in the UK, and could be considered as an import and liable to our import duties after Jan 1st, if there is no positive news or an extra years transition for boats, then it looks like I am going to have to have a cold uncomfortable trip back at the end of November...
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zero VAT status and selling a UK boat in France after Brexit 23 Oct 2020 12:27 #119212

  • Richard Cooper
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Oops that should be RYA!
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zero VAT status and selling a UK boat in France after Brexit 23 Oct 2020 11:52 #119208

  • Colin Stone
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Richard,

> RYC is the go to place for this.

?? Richmond Yacht Club??
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zero VAT status and selling a UK boat in France after Brexit 23 Oct 2020 10:19 #119205

  • Richard Cooper
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As Colin said, realistically none of us know until the EU and the UK conclude a deal and HMRC and Treasury get to work on the detail. This of course assumes that the opposite numbers in the EU countries agree that VAT paid before 2021 in the UK is accepted as paid in the EU. In our case the shell was built in Holland and the rest of the boat completed in the UK - trying to persuade a tax inspector what was paid and where would be damned hard. Also of course some of us have moved house, had floods, fire and other disasters or are just plain careless and relevant paperwork is now missing. We have obtained a T2L form that at least shows that HMC are happy that the boat has 'Union Goods' status, RYC is the go to place for this. Hopefully this might add weight to any future arguments should they ever arise. In my experience even if forms and receipts prove nothing conclusively the sheer amount of paperwork you can wave in the enemies face can sometimes win the day.
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zero VAT status and selling a UK boat in France after Brexit 22 Oct 2020 20:01 #119199

  • Peter Cawson
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I wonder if the question should be considered from the viewpoint of the French broker and his EU customer.

If the broker was selling a Swiss registered boat on which no EU VAT had been paid, the broker would declare that the boat was subject to VAT if bought and kept in the EU. The buyer would bear this in mind when it comes to the price he'd be prepared to pay.

The question is, if the boat has had UK VAT paid on it (at whatever rate), will this still be considered as EU valid if sold after the year end? We don't know, but I suspect a boat with a UK VAT certificate may be more difficult to sell than one with a French or Dutch certificate. I don't think the country of registration is relevant - it is more whether VALID VAT has been paid. I hope the validity of UK VAT is honoured, but that's uncertain. I'm thankful that my Dutch-built boat had Dutch VAT paid by the first owner.

Peter
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zero VAT status and selling a UK boat in France after Brexit 22 Oct 2020 11:46 #119187

  • Tam Murrell
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Thank you for your "thank you" Helen. As a reminder (or for new posters) many people get posts by eMail, and to avoid us all getting lots of posts simply saying 'thank you' there is a "Thank You" button at the bottom left on the forum website posts - i've just done that on your post.

Thank you :cheer:

Tam
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zero VAT status and selling a UK boat in France after Brexit 22 Oct 2020 11:38 #119186

  • Helen Mitchell
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Thanks Balliol

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zero VAT status and selling a UK boat in France after Brexit 22 Oct 2020 11:38 #119185

  • Helen Mitchell
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Thanks Tam
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zero VAT status and selling a UK boat in France after Brexit 22 Oct 2020 11:37 #119184

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Thanks Andy

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zero VAT status and selling a UK boat in France after Brexit 20 Oct 2020 21:28 #119141

  • Andy Soper
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My thanks to Balliol, Tam and Paul for their helpful comments.

Realistically none of us know until the UK and EU conclude a deal and HMRC and the Treasury get to work on the detail.

RYA and BMF have explained the issues for UK owned boats but it will be low priority and it may take some time for the rules to clarify.

Clearly boats in UK will be taxed iaw UK law and those in EU by EU laws. There may be some short term allowances and transitional arrangements.

To return to Helen's question I lean towards Balliol's interpretation and private sales of second hand boats should not attract EU TVA unless the transaction includes a registered company as buyer / seller.

But - again - this is all conjecture until the dust settles after 1 January 2021.
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zero VAT status and selling a UK boat in France after Brexit 20 Oct 2020 21:28 #119140

  • Tam Murrell
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I think we all appreciate that VAT has been paid, albeit at 0%, but what changes is Brexit, and it is always possible that EU27 countries and France in particular my take a different view of a UK registered vessel sold in France at some later date.

Tam
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zero VAT status and selling a UK boat in France after Brexit 20 Oct 2020 20:20 #119139

  • Cliff Bartlett
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Balliol. I see your point. But maybe TVA has been paid, but at 0%. Would this,I wonder, make any difference?

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zero VAT status and selling a UK boat in France after Brexit 20 Oct 2020 19:29 #119138

  • Balliol Fowden
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I too think that Paul is right. A privately owned vessel which is not owned by a VAT / TVA registered entity or person is not at present liable for VAT on resale. Indeed a person or company that is not VAT / TVA registered cannot by law charge VAT.

The problem that I can foresee, and perhaps fleshing out what Tam has said, is that some buyers, especially non U.K. nationality buyers, may not understand or accept that the vessel is VAT paid given that zero tax has been paid, and enquiries to a French TVA office might excite unwelcome attention. That has always been the risk of zero rating, particularly where the vessel has not been used or is not to be used as a principal private residence. I do not need reminding of the relevant U.K. VAT Tribunal rulings, but what was a complex situation in U.K. tax law for a foreigner to understand will undoubtedly become even less understandable after a no deal Brexit, and the uncertainty may well affect sales.

As Paul says VAT will be chargeable on the service element of the sale, the brokerage fee, if a TVA registered broker is used.

It is indeed a matter where one can only hold one’s breath whilst crossing as many fingers as possible!

Balliol.
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zero VAT status and selling a UK boat in France after Brexit 20 Oct 2020 18:42 #119137

  • Tam Murrell
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I think Paul is right - certainly in the ordinary course of events the TVA would be on the brokerage fees but not the vessel itself. If you keep the ship on the UK register though almost anything might happen - the broker would then be selling a third-world possession, and tax authorities may well regard that as de facto importation and find some tax to impose. Unfortunately all such matters are a step in the dark as yet.

Tam
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zero VAT status and selling a UK boat in France after Brexit 20 Oct 2020 18:03 #119135

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Hello Helen

I think that you will find that TVA is not charged on the boat price itself, rather on the "commission" or service cost that a broker charges, typically around 8%+ TVA at 20%.

Just the same as selling a boat in the UK.

Paul Hayes
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zero VAT status and selling a UK boat in France after Brexit 20 Oct 2020 17:40 #119134

  • Helen Mitchell
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If we were to sell our barge in France in the future, would it be subject to French VAT (which applies to all boats in France at re-sale regardless of live aboard status or not)? We have a VAT paid receipt and a zero VAT status letter from HMRC but will this mean that whoever buys the boat is not liable to French VAT? I am trying to clarify where we stand on this.

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