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TOPIC: 360 view from the wheelhouse - NL

360 view from the wheelhouse - NL Today 02:25 #120033

  • Charles Whitehead
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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 28 Nov 2020 19:29 #119919

  • Pete Milne
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An inside camera would let you uses a cheap WiFi cam that can connect to a tablet. I recently bought an EZVIZ 'baby-monitor' that would do nicely, for ÂŁ20. It has an app for the tablet that takes snapshots or films, too, and could monitor more than one camera.

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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 28 Nov 2020 19:05 #119917

  • Trevor Glave
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Actually, my suggestion was to put the camera inside the rear-facing window of the rear cabin. From your photo this would give you a totally unimpeded view astern?
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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 28 Nov 2020 18:48 #119916

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Thanks Trevor, thanks for the suggestion. Yes, installing the camera within the wheelhouse would certainly have benefits. If we find that there are issues we could move on to installing it externally. Brendan

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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 27 Nov 2020 19:26 #119897

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Having sent in a few terriers I can confirm that the next version of CEVNI - while calling for an all-round view from the helm will accept the use of both mirrors and cameras as acceptable devices.

(You can also move your head!)
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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 19 Nov 2020 18:08 #119776

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Why not install the camera looking out of the rear window of the rear cabin? Totally unimpeded view and out of the weather?
Trevor G.
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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 19 Nov 2020 15:32 #119775

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Thanks Paul, the view is actually better than you would imagine, because the tops are overhang, but I agree that a camera mounted at the a high point would be desirable. Kind regards, Brendan

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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 17 Nov 2020 22:35 #119748

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Hi Brendan

Good photo, worth more than a thousand words.

I think that you are right to be concerned, looks like a lot of blind spots.

I'd definitely want some rear view assistance, either mirrors or a camera mounted perhaps at the highest point center of wheelhouse on a purpose made bracket looking over the boxes.

Not just to comply with any rules, but for safety, and piece of mind, not just for commercials, but fast leasure craft that come up at impressive speed, and in the case of a rowing 8, silently 😊.

Good luck
Paul
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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 17 Nov 2020 21:01 #119747

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Thanks again for all the useful input. We often go into narrow spaces bows first but going in backwards is fine at slow speed with the odd tweak on the bow thruster. It normally depends on where the bollards/cleats are located on the pontoon/bank. Having an experienced crew also helps. The tops of the boxes overhang so the view lost is less than might be expected and one soon learns how much boat is behind the wheelhouse. By chance, I passed my driving test in a VW Beetle where none of the remote points are visible - this turned out to be a useful experience for barging! Regards, Brendan

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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 17 Nov 2020 14:31 #119736

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Philip Davies wrote: Hi

Just for clarification, I attach a better picture of the boxes mounted above the aft cabin. There is a gap of 1m between them.

Our proposal is to mount a wired camera on the back centre of the wheelhouse roof , with 120 deg view. A 7" monitor would be placed in front of the helm.




Regards


I think youd be better place to put the camera at the rear of one of the boxes. I dont see that you would get much value from adding it to the wheelhouse as much of it will be a vast array of storage box in the view. However of course setting it up and testing would confirm whether it is or is not any good.

If youve a rear overhand and you get sensible vision the Blackvue I suspect would work and give added bonus of a dash cam both at the front and rear. If it is fairly protected from elements probablyl be fine as it is quite small in its size.
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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 17 Nov 2020 14:29 #119735

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Peter Cawson wrote: I've taken a look at the 2 Barge Register entries and I see the problem. Those storage boxes appear to be almost as wide as the wheelhouse and too high to see over (correct me if I'm wrong), so I'd fit a couple of wing mirrors to the outside of your wheelhouse. Do this for your own benefit rather than to avoid the remote possibility of an inspection. I'd not want those boxes behind me on some busy commercial waterways without a mirror each side. Incidentally, how do you reverse into a pontoon mooring with only a 5 m wide space? AIS no help, but mirrors may be OK with practice! ;-)

Peter


You look out the doors to go backwards as you would be going slowly and no doubt making sure you were in a good space, you spring in forwards or you pretend your in the London canals and bounce your way in ;-) (ps last bit was of course a joke)

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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 17 Nov 2020 14:13 #119734

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Hi

Just for clarification, I attach a better picture of the boxes mounted above the aft cabin. There is a gap of 1m between them.

Our proposal is to mount a wired camera on the back centre of the wheelhouse roof , with 120 deg view. A 7" monitor would be placed in front of the helm.




Regards
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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 17 Nov 2020 13:48 #119733

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I've taken a look at the 2 Barge Register entries and I see the problem. Those storage boxes appear to be almost as wide as the wheelhouse and too high to see over (correct me if I'm wrong), so I'd fit a couple of wing mirrors to the outside of your wheelhouse. Do this for your own benefit rather than to avoid the remote possibility of an inspection. I'd not want those boxes behind me on some busy commercial waterways without a mirror each side. Incidentally, how do you reverse into a pontoon mooring with only a 5 m wide space? AIS no help, but mirrors may be OK with practice! ;-)

Peter

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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 17 Nov 2020 13:19 #119731

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Brendan, just looked at the pic of neat boxes on the aft roof in barge register and really can't see an issue.
There are plenty of other scranbag barges out there for the police to get their teeth into if they suddenly decide to have a barge vision campaign, and I'm sure they would concentrate on fwd vision first.
You have AIS. Use a suitable plotter to set a Guard Zone to alarm if a submarine creeps up behind!!
And I wouldn't devote any more thought to it and just get out and enjoy.
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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 17 Nov 2020 12:48 #119728

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Sam Archer wrote: Ooooooo a bit more googling and I found this model which is way cheaper!

www.blackvue.uk/products/dr490l-2ch

Now I know from memory that this company is not the official importer of these prodcuts, despite a webaddress looking like they might be. I have ordered one for a second vehicle and will happily report back accordingly once it safely arrives.


My set up arrived, in fact much quicker than I thought. Haven't set it up yet although one thing that I didn't think about for your solution is that the rear camera is not for outdoor use so possibly wouldn't fix your issue as it would need to be on the inside of the glass and therefore it is unlikely to add any benefit over what you currently have with turning your head.
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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 17 Nov 2020 12:31 #119727

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Thanks Colin and Peter for your input. A little background would be useful, Brunel ( 17m built 2007 ) has been a syndicate boat for about eight years and about seven years ago two useful storage boxes were placed on the aft roof. In cruising around France, Belgium and The Netherlands, the slightly restricted view has not been an issue ( especially as we have AIS). However, a new syndicate member is concerned that we are breaking the Dutch Police Regulations for ships i.e. that there must be a 360 degree view. There seem to be two aspects to this, the Police rules for ships allow optical devices ( which I interpret as mirrors and/or cameras ) and do the ship rules apply to "small ships" under 20m? If the rules apply then using a camera would show our intention to comply. As noted by many respondents, there are lots of ships of all sizes which have restricted direct visibility from the wheelhouse and we assume that some have cameras. Kind regards, Brendan
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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 16 Nov 2020 23:00 #119725

  • Colin Stone
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Have to say I follow Peter's sentiments.
Seems you are looking for a solution for an issue that isn't there??
If you have a pre-owned vessel, ask the previous owner.
If new, ask the builder.

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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 16 Nov 2020 21:25 #119724

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I'm tempted as ask why you are asking this! Are you planning to install an obstacle that will obstruct your all-round view?

Being under 20 m we enjoy having to contend with very few formal construction regulations. If newly built, the boat will comply with an RCD classification, (typically B or C) and I assure we shouldn't make changes that would compromise this classification - eg enlarging windows, installing thinner glass, etc), but we are not required to undertake any subsequent inspections. I'm not aware of any specific viewing regulations, though I'd expect to be ticked off if I was boarded and there was poor visibility from the steering position.
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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 16 Nov 2020 20:10 #119723

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Thank you to everyone who has responded. Peter you mentioned that you boat is under 20m, as is the boat that I part own. Whilst I found "Small Ship" defined in the Dutch Police Regulations as being under 20m I couldn't find anything to say that such craft are exempt from the viewing regulations. Do you, or does anyone, have a pointer to any relaxations for boats under 20m in The Netherlands? Thanks, Brendan

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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 12 Nov 2020 13:41 #119682

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I'm under 20m so don't need to comply with regulations ( well not all the ones you do), but I have no problem with a couple of mirrors - no need for a camera. Same as in my car - simple mirrors are more than adequate when people come up from behind without warning!

I prefer a slightly flatter mirror than Colin's. Not such a wide view but ships look much bigger at a distance. A lorry side mirror ideal in my view. I'm not sure a mirror (or camera) alone should be an excuse to allow anything to block a clear all-round view for the skipper

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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 12 Nov 2020 11:28 #119673

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>It is also the case that many commercials on bigger waterways are now very fast and seem to take a delight in steaming up close behind.

Absolutely. So I have a water skiing rear view mirror, above front window below, and also use the Guardzone to set a close CPA alarm on my AIS plot on NavMonPC. So anything coming up astern is either seen or heard by alarm.

www.navmonpc.com


>> As I said earlier, moving head achieves 360 requirement.

>Not so if there's an obstacle.

OK. Add one pace left or right - move!! And see round obstacle.

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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 12 Nov 2020 10:15 #119672

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Ooooooo a bit more googling and I found this model which is way cheaper!

www.blackvue.uk/products/dr490l-2ch

Now I know from memory that this company is not the official importer of these prodcuts, despite a webaddress looking like they might be. I have ordered one for a second vehicle and will happily report back accordingly once it safely arrives.
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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 12 Nov 2020 10:08 #119671

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Balliol,
It is a shame they still don't make this model of dashcam as it would do both your jobs in one go.

www.amazon.co.uk/BlackVue-DR750LW-2CH-16GB/dp/B00L9MU17A

I have it in my van, the rear camera is focused on our dogs, there is picture in picture on teh main screen or you can have it focused on front or rear exclusively. Wasnt cheap mind but great bit of kit.

Balliol Fowden wrote: Agree with Paul. Also what about all the commercials that run empty, ballasted down to get under bridges, so that there is no way that their forward visibility complies with the rules. Some have cameras, not all!

I think that visibility is a rule that is widely ignored. Nonetheless in an incident (remember “Marchioness”?) books could be thrown.

It is also the case that many commercials on bigger waterways are now very fast and seem to take a delight in steaming up close behind. Before we go up to NL again I am going to fit an electronic rear view mirror to save me keeping having to turn round all the time. I use a Bluetooth camera on the back of our caravan which works a treat as a permanent rear view mirror, feeding a small screen bit like a sat nav, but with good 140 degree field of view. Just needs a 12v supply to the camera on the back of the wheelhouse (above the deck chairs and washing line!) Circa ÂŁ150 for a reasonably good one. Make sure you get one rated for continuous use, not just a reversing camera.

I also have a dash cam to fit when I next get out.

Balliol.

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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 12 Nov 2020 10:07 #119670

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Although Paul's comment is correct. and I've heard it in France too, I don't think that in itself it could be relied on in an English translation of regulations. - you'd need to refer to the Dutch version. French regulation do for example make various exemptions for 'menues embarcations'; this term is specifically defined, and I'd guess that there is something similar in the Netherlands.

Tam
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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 12 Nov 2020 07:15 #119668

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Just a thought.

In Holland a Ship, is a vessel over 20m, and generally Commercial.
Anything under 20m is generally called a yacht, whatever it's shape.

I've seen lots of boats with mirrors, inside the wheelhouse and on the sides of it, and a few with camera and screen.

Paul
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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 11 Nov 2020 22:11 #119666

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I am not aware of this being applied and would think it's there to circumvent a skipper claiming they couldn't see/ hear in the event of an accident.
There are so many vessels with restricted visability on the waters such as ex-lifeboats with 30 on board having a party obstructing the guy on the tiller.
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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 11 Nov 2020 20:45 #119661

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I searched the Internet and found the current Dutch Police Regulations relating to the field of view, this translates as:

Part 1 Article 1.09
"4 A ship may not sail if the person carrying out the steering is unable to hear and give all information and instructions incoming to the wheelhouse or from there. In particular, he must have a sufficiently direct or indirect view on all sides and be able to hear sound signals. If no free view is possible, this can be compensated by an optical tool, with which a clear and unbiased image is obtained over a sufficiently wide field of view, or by a lookout. If special circumstances so, a lookout or listening post informing him must be present."

My interpretation is that a camera and screen would be acceptable to fill in the gaps in the view astern. Has anyone ever had their boat inspected by the Dutch Police and were they happy with or interested in cameras? Thanks, Brendan

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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 15 Oct 2020 09:38 #119057

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Philip Davies wrote: Hi

I am in the same syndicate as the OP.

I am disappointed that we have not received more feed back from the many members who cruise in the Netherlands.

Thank you for taking time to reply. As a syndicate, we cannot take any chances of falling foul of the regulations.

Regards


Disappointment is part of life, just as some canals are not as picture perfect as the next one.

Have you ever considered calling the law enforcement agencies enforcing these rules, or the ANWB, who published this info.

I called the police in the Netherlands and after being switched over one to many times I grabbed my axe and showed the phone who was the boss,
After that I tried making an online appointment , to learn the next available one was 6 weeks in the future.
Then I went onto ebay and bought myself 2 drones which I now have flying over and in front of the barge each time we take her out.
So I have. perfect bubble to view all traffic.

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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 14 Oct 2020 21:00 #119056

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Thank you very much to everyone who responded - the comments been very useful. Being a syndicated boat we will no doubt have an interesting discussion on the pros and cons of all the options at our forthcoming AGM!
Brendan

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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 12 Oct 2020 18:54 #119045

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> As I said earlier, moving head achieves 360 requirement.

Not so if there's an obstacle. The question is about obstacles I think and asking for suggestions as to how to view around them if they block clear view.

I have no problem as my boat has only one helm position with good 360 visibility. As I suggested earlier, a rear-view mirror helps on big commercial waterways and it can be moved when on small waterways where sight of my square-shaped back corner helps in exiting locks without damage, or losing fenders.

My previous boat (20m) had a car deck behind the helm position but the Panda’s roof was low enough that the car offered no visual barrier. That boat also had an inside steering station that I found less satisfactory as rear vision was seriously obstructed, however much I moved my head! Mirrors and cameras are a poor substitute for all-round clear vision.

Peter
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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 12 Oct 2020 16:46 #119041

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As I said earlier, moving head achieves 360 requirement.
I have vertical front screen and use Schott Amiran anti reflective glass. UK TRIWV in early days has sloping front required, continental versions had anti reflective glass acceptable.
And a water ski boat rear view mirror.
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360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 12 Oct 2020 16:38 #119040

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Philip and Brendon

You mention that your ship is 17m so you don't have any need to comply with ESTRIN regs which in any case only cover replacement wheelhouses and their ability to have good allround vision, sloping front screen etc. Most older barges even over 20m are exempt from this and could not comply anyway due to construction constraints.

I'm sure you need not worry about NL water police pouncing on you and quoting regs. I know of a few barges with lorry type rear view mirrors which seem to work well and I also know a few with cameras which I find difficult to sense the depth of field, similar with the reversing camera in the car which I never find easy to use. It's what you get used to but frankly stepping half outside the wheelhouse to take a quick look behind is common and usually possible with a hand still on the wheel.

As for being able to see the strn when going astern, most luxemotors have the cabin roof obscuring the counter stern but a nice big flag staff and ensign serves as a good measure of where to stop. Being able to see the nearside fwd and aft quarter rubbing strakes is more useful when going astern to ensure a straight run.

Philip Davies wrote: Hi

I am in the same syndicate as the OP.

I am disappointed that we have not received more feed back from the many members who cruise in the Netherlands.

In particular, we would like to know;

  • Whether other members are aware of this regulation and if they have been advised of non compliance by the authorities, or otherwise.

  • How they comply; mirrors or cameras

  • Whether they are able to see their stern to aid reversing

  • Whether they just have a good all round view of boats coming up behind them

  • Whether the requirement is covered in ES-TRIN and what is acceptable in the way of aids

  • Thank you for taking time to reply. As a syndicate, we cannot take any chances of falling foul of the regulations.

    Regards

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    360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 12 Oct 2020 14:18 #119039

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    Hi

    I am in the same syndicate as the OP.

    I am disappointed that we have not received more feed back from the many members who cruise in the Netherlands.

    In particular, we would like to know;

  • Whether other members are aware of this regulation and if they have been advised of non compliance by the authorities, or otherwise.

  • How they comply; mirrors or cameras

  • Whether they are able to see their stern to aid reversing

  • Whether they just have a good all round view of boats coming up behind them

  • Whether the requirement is covered in ES-TRIN and what is acceptable in the way of aids

  • Thank you for taking time to reply. As a syndicate, we cannot take any chances of falling foul of the regulations.

    Regards

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    360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 08 Oct 2020 22:49 #119005

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    Balliol Fowden wrote: Agree with Paul. Also what about all the commercials that run empty,

    Balliol.


    Hi Balliol
    I wrote a little tongue in cheek, but I'm pretty sure after seeing a lot of commercials, up to 180m long (2 dumb 80m pans and a 20m pusher) up and down the Rhone and Saone, they do seem to rely on technology a lot, AIS, Radar, Auto Pilot, all at speeds of up to 20km/h. Similarly the 120m Hotel Ships, all on a tight timetable, some have passed at a heck of a speed with no respect for the effects on moored vessels, others more considerate. To be thrown all over the place when they pass at speed in the middle of the night can be very disturbing, just because their screens say that you are not in The Channel. I really don't think that they know what effects 3000 tonnes of displacement at 15 k/h does.

    Paul

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    360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 08 Oct 2020 22:11 #119004

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    Less costly and much simpler to install, a large vehicle rear-view mirror will do the job. The sort found on buses or trucks. Mine is attached with a photographic clamp either to my screen frame when on busy commercial waterways (to see what's coming up behind) or to my side rail when on small gauge canals so I can monitor my aft quarter as I exit locks.
    Peter
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    360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 08 Oct 2020 21:44 #119003

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    Agree with Paul. Also what about all the commercials that run empty, ballasted down to get under bridges, so that there is no way that their forward visibility complies with the rules. Some have cameras, not all!

    I think that visibility is a rule that is widely ignored. Nonetheless in an incident (remember “Marchioness”?) books could be thrown.

    It is also the case that many commercials on bigger waterways are now very fast and seem to take a delight in steaming up close behind. Before we go up to NL again I am going to fit an electronic rear view mirror to save me keeping having to turn round all the time. I use a Bluetooth camera on the back of our caravan which works a treat as a permanent rear view mirror, feeding a small screen bit like a sat nav, but with good 140 degree field of view. Just needs a 12v supply to the camera on the back of the wheelhouse (above the deck chairs and washing line!) Circa ÂŁ150 for a reasonably good one. Make sure you get one rated for continuous use, not just a reversing camera.

    I also have a dash cam to fit when I next get out.

    Balliol.
    The following user(s) said Thank You: Philip Davies

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    360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 08 Oct 2020 18:23 #119000

    • Colin Stone
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    The snivel serpents that wrote the rules assume one is bolted to the deck and static. 360 easily achieved by moving head!!

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    Colin Stone
    Barge Register KEI
    www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk
    DBA - The Barge Association
    DBA - De Binnenvaartvereniging
    DBA - L’Association des PĂ©niches de Plaisance

    360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 08 Oct 2020 18:18 #118999

    • Paul Hayes
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    Even the 110m boys with 2 cars, one speedboat, one jetski all parked on the aft cabin roof directly behind the wheelhouse, or the 38m with a car perched on the hold covers in front of the steering position.
    🙄😉

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    360 view from the wheelhouse - NL 08 Oct 2020 14:52 #118998

    • Brendan Whelan
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    The NL Wateralmanak Pt 1 Article 1.09 states that there should be a 360 degrees view from the wheelhouse. Brunel is a syndicate Luxe-style barge 17 long, there are two boxes mounted on the aft deck but with a gap between them. The boxes do obstruct some of the view but in around 9 years of cruising around Europe there has never been an incident and no official has ever noted an issue with the visibility. We are considering the option of fitting rear facing mirrors on the inner edges of the boxes, positioned so that they won't obstruct the walking areas. Alternatively, a camera mounted on the wheelhouse with a display on the console could be a solution.
    Has anybody any experience with this type of issue? For example, does the Dutch viewing rule apply to a boat of this length, is it intended to help see boats in the distance or to help when mooring?
    Thanks in advance, Brendan

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