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TOPIC: Engine maintenance

Engine maintenance 21 Oct 2020 00:36 #119143

  • Peter Smith
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Phillip, I had a similar issue. I used a wet and dry vac. where I could access the bilge.
I also loaded up the ship to lay it over towards the access side. It only needs half an inch.
I also used disposable nappies (as cheap absorbent) constrained within stockings to stop de-lamination of the contents.
If you can use some water to move the diesel to an access point any residual water will eventually evaporate.
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Engine maintenance 20 Oct 2020 18:18 #119136

  • Phillip Carpenter
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The shaft opening in the aft engine room bulkhead is approximately 250/300mm above the floor so if I was to empty a full tank of diesel into it (800 litres) it would probably be contained within the engine room bilge. Might be good for the environment. Not good from a cleaning point of view

The difficulty now is cleaning. I will call her a 1923 original build with ribs riveted athwart shipsThe engine bilge is the full length & beam of the engine room. There is access under the engine & some floor plates I can lift on the stbd side but on the port side there is the domestic hot water tank, a spud pole, the filters from the fuel system, the engine water pipes to the keel cooling & the service batteries so therefore very little access on that side..
It may be that several gallons of bilge X & a wet&dry vac might be my best option.

As always. All suggestions welcome

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Engine maintenance 20 Oct 2020 16:46 #119132

  • Sam Archer
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Chris Grant wrote: Philip, sorry to hear of you flood. Glass bowls, useful as they are for visual check, are banned in UK under BSS probably for a good reason, cracks while absent or fire. I'm surprised the ESTRIN allows them. I had to change all bowls for steel for Thames BSS before departing for the continent and getting ESTRIN.

Also there should be a sealed dam with a high frame separating the engine / gearbox bilge from the aft prop shaft bilge and no bilge pump in the engine bilge so as to avoid possibility of auto pumping spilled fuel outside.

Phillip Carpenter wrote: Sound advice
Thank you Colin. I have copied your list &will apply it to Matariki
Thank you to everyone for your comments & help

What had actually happened was the glass bowl in the secondary CAV filter assembly had cracked since our last visit (don’t know how) in January & over time the diesel had gravitated from the tank into the bilge.
The lesson learned is to check everything twice & not be in so much of a hurry to get to the ferry


Interesting as I have glass bowls x3 in mine and it passed its UK BSS without any issues. Apparently it needs to be fire proof for a period and be compliant with ISO10088 to be acceptable. So glass is not necessarily disallowed, it just depends on the markings.

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Engine maintenance 20 Oct 2020 16:39 #119131

  • Chris Grant
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Philip, sorry to hear of you flood. Glass bowls, useful as they are for visual check, are banned in UK under BSS probably for a good reason, cracks while absent or fire. I'm surprised the ESTRIN allows them. I had to change all bowls for steel for Thames BSS before departing for the continent and getting ESTRIN.

Also there should be a sealed dam with a high frame separating the engine / gearbox bilge from the aft prop shaft bilge and no bilge pump in the engine bilge so as to avoid possibility of auto pumping spilled fuel outside.

Phillip Carpenter wrote: Sound advice
Thank you Colin. I have copied your list &will apply it to Matariki
Thank you to everyone for your comments & help

What had actually happened was the glass bowl in the secondary CAV filter assembly had cracked since our last visit (don’t know how) in January & over time the diesel had gravitated from the tank into the bilge.
The lesson learned is to check everything twice & not be in so much of a hurry to get to the ferry

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Engine maintenance 20 Oct 2020 15:50 #119130

  • Phillip Carpenter
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Sound advice
Thank you Colin. I have copied your list &will apply it to Matariki
Thank you to everyone for your comments & help

What had actually happened was the glass bowl in the secondary CAV filter assembly had cracked since our last visit (don’t know how) in January & over time the diesel had gravitated from the tank into the bilge.
The lesson learned is to check everything twice & not be in so much of a hurry to get to the ferry

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Engine maintenance 19 Oct 2020 09:06 #119101

  • Colin Stone
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>Shut off valves I have. Next time I leave the boat l will remember to close them

Perhaps the value of a shut down check off list. My list on a previous post - page 2 first line under Engineering.

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Engine maintenance 17 Oct 2020 16:23 #119074

  • Phillip Carpenter
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Thank you Balliol
I have found that by removing the bleed screw from the top of the cav filter the diesel gravitates through the pump

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Engine maintenance 17 Oct 2020 16:21 #119073

  • Phillip Carpenter
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I don’t think so. I think I would be evicted from Belgium in double quick time if I pumped that into the canal.
Luckily I know I have no water ingress into the engine room bilge so as the diesel was still clean I have been able to pump it into the heating oil tank
Easier to deal with dirty filters on the heating system than on the engine.
Shut off valves I have. Next time I leave the boat l will remember to close them

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Engine maintenance 17 Oct 2020 10:49 #119068

  • Colin Stone
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>A leaking cav filter & 150 litres of white diesel in the engine bilge.

Gosh. That ain't good. A bilge pump could pump that overboard.
I think I would be fitting /closing shut off valves at the tank outlets.

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Engine maintenance 17 Oct 2020 09:44 #119067

  • Balliol Fowden
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Philip,

I can’t speak for your particular Daf and installation but my 615, and every other Daf I have had occasion to tinker with, will auto-bleed. With mine I just turn the engine over for about ten seconds on full speed setting and off she goes. It’s better of course to prime with the lift pump if possible, just to save wear and tear on the starter motor and battery, but I have never had to open bleed points or crack off injector pipes to bleed through.

I am aware however that 575 injection systems can vary.

Balliol.

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Engine maintenance 16 Oct 2020 18:02 #119063

  • Phillip Carpenter
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Thank you all for your assistance regarding starting the engine after it being idle for so long but I have just returned to my barge & now have another problem. A leaking cav filter & 150 litres of white diesel in the engine bilge.

I have 2 engine fuel filters connected to the cav pump. One from the tank to the lift pump. The second is connected to what I take to be the discharge of the lift pump & the front top of the injection pump body. This was the one that was leaking. I have now changed that with all new gaskets but how do I prime it. There appears to be a lever on the lift pump but this is sealed with wire

How do I prime this & where are the bleed points on the pump
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Engine maintenance 24 Sep 2020 19:10 #118697

  • Colin Stone
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An interesting observation of the oil. When new the TBN, Total Base Number, is 10.4. This alkaline base gets used up by the acidic products of combustion and over time reduces.
The reduction limit is 25%, so min 7.8.
After 650 hours the TBN has dropped by 0.6 to 9.8. So well above the limit.
It will be interesting to see what the TBN has reduced to this year.

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Engine maintenance 23 Sep 2020 20:36 #118689

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Balliol Fowden wrote: Paul and Colin have offered sound advice. I do mildly disagree with Paul in that in my opinion winterising as a repeat process does not need any great level of practical ability, just an understanding of the system. All barges are different so there is no one “check list” that could apply to all. If in doubt get a good engineer to take a careful look at the system and get a plan drawn up on the basis of the details of your system.

Don’t just ask an engineer to winterise the system as a one-off job, because however good they are they could be forgiven for not understanding the whole system. Get help if necessary to work out what needs doing and in what order and generate a check list.

As has been said we do seem to have much milder winters at the moment but the extremes of weather could easily include another snap arctic freeze up, so prudence suggests proper winterisation irrespective, and your insurers might be interested if you do not take prudent precautions. I speak as one who winterised his ship in late July this year in anticipation (probably correct the way things are looking with the virus!) that I might not get back to it before the winter.

Keel cooled engines are less at risk than raw water cooled ones because warm water from under the ship (or under the ice!) will thermosiphon up through the system, but that can never be a guaranteed situation. Raw water systems can be designed to drain effectively but they are all different and an existing system might need some adjustment to allow all parts to drain easily.

Where a primary raw water system cannot be drained effectively antifreeze can be sucked into the system through a suitable port as the engine is shut down, potable grade for preference in deference to the fishes since you will be ejecting this solution into the waterway when you start up next.

A competent engineer or surveyor can also advise on potential latent problems. For example sea cocks in the bottom of a barge are unlikely to freeze, but valves in the side close to the water line can freeze, fracture and leak (even if turned off), which has been known to sink a barge.

Domestic systems can be designed so that they drain effectively through one or two dedicated drain points. On our ship we open two drain valves at the stern of the ship, open all the sink and shower taps and everything drains within minutes to a bilge pump. Close everything afterwards! Alternatively potable antifreeze can again be drawn into the system, but it is expensive stuff.

I put a splash of antifreeze solution down all shower and bath wastes, running the pumps as I do so to draw it in. The dish washer and washing machines get a splash in the bottom, as do the loos. Like Colin I don’t drain steel water tanks.

The central heating (as for the engine closed circuits) is permanently treated with antifreeze. I don’t believe in changing the AF routinely, but always top up when necessary with a strong solution and check with a hydrometer occasionally. Usually within say a seven year period I have fiddled with something that has necessitated at least partial draining of a system so it gets some new antifreeze then!

My point really is that winterising is an easy job once you know what needs doing, which might require one-off professional advice and perhaps a few small modifications to the system , but once you have a few drain valves and a dedicated check list specifically for your barge it is a procedure that should be very easy and take very little time at all. About 20 minutes in our case, and if you do it yourself you know it has been done!

Balliol.


Hi Balliol
To be clear I wrote
""is it very difficult to do", it depends a) on the barge, b) on your experience."

I do know barge owners who do not know which end of a hammer to knock a screw in😁, and have a tool kit of one Swiss army knife, the budget one with one blade and a cork screw, have to get priorities right 🤣.

I 100% do agree about getting advice and education from someone who does know how to assess systems and take the appropriate action. Something I have done many times.

A few years ago I wrote on this forum a pretty detailed discussion of actions that might aply. As have you and others. It seems an evergreen subject.

I would add for those who are feeling their way through this to take photos, just incase they need proof to supply to an insurance company.

I understand that some insurers instead of "full winterisation" will accept leaving heating systems "on" with a thermostat set at 10C.

Best
Paul

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Engine maintenance 23 Sep 2020 19:00 #118685

  • Colin Stone
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And for those interested in engine oil analysis, this is last years report. The oil went into the engine in Apr 2016 and had 681 hours running time at test time. Another sample taken for this year's analysis.
Now we're using white diesel instead of the old sulfury red stuff, the oil stays in much better condition. I change the generator oil when the engine gets done. It has done few hours in the same time period - around 40 hours compared with 740 engine on current oil. The value of a little solar!!

Millers use to do this for free for their oil users, but now about £30/year. Simple to suck 100ml out via dipstick tube with a 2 hose cap on a little bottle. Can do with lungs when hot, but vacuum cleaner needed when cold.

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Engine maintenance 23 Sep 2020 14:18 #118681

  • Sam Archer
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Colin, you OTT? Ha I would expect nothing less (and that is aimed as a compliment by the way)

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Engine maintenance 23 Sep 2020 13:33 #118678

  • Colin Stone
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Thanks, Sam. And a bit OT, but in line with lists and pages - my daily log page.

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Engine maintenance 23 Sep 2020 11:18 #118675

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We have a very similar list. We put antifreeze into the toilets and flush the loo. In our case, the forward toilet only has a short pipe to the black water tank but the aft loo has a long pipe that steadily rises before dropping to the tank, hence a couple of flushes of antifreeze are needed. As previously noted each boat is different therefore I suggest trying to think of anything else that holds water. For example, we have a washing machine that can be drained from the front, a Karcher for the windows that needs draining and a Gardena pump, used for washing the decks, etc, that has a priming bowl which needs draining. There is also a filter under the sink which we remove and external water filters that we drain. We also use baskets filled with water absorbing crystals and have a dehumidifier for use in the spring. A few years ago, the external temperature reached -13 deg C in Sillery, near Reims, but the barge was fine. Good luck, Brendan

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Engine maintenance 22 Sep 2020 18:32 #118654

  • Sam Archer
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Wow Colin B)
That is an amazing list plus it doubles up of a checklist of all the things you need to "undo" when you get back in Spring.

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Engine maintenance 22 Sep 2020 17:07 #118651

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Hi All
The most important thing to do before starting any engine is to check the oil level!,particularly after a long run, or standing idle for a
long time, engines can get diesel in their sumps,from the lift pump,if the lift pump diaphragm has a small hole it,a big hole and the engine would run rough,or not at all, also from the injector pump end drive seals, being worn or softened by bio fuel.Engines have been known to runaway, running on fuel from the the over full sump.
Best regards Dave Puttock
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Engine maintenance 22 Sep 2020 10:34 #118636

  • Colin Stone
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Might be of help - my shut down check lists.

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Engine maintenance 22 Sep 2020 09:47 #118634

  • Balliol Fowden
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Paul and Colin have offered sound advice. I do mildly disagree with Paul in that in my opinion winterising as a repeat process does not need any great level of practical ability, just an understanding of the system. All barges are different so there is no one “check list” that could apply to all. If in doubt get a good engineer to take a careful look at the system and get a plan drawn up on the basis of the details of your system.

Don’t just ask an engineer to winterise the system as a one-off job, because however good they are they could be forgiven for not understanding the whole system. Get help if necessary to work out what needs doing and in what order and generate a check list.

As has been said we do seem to have much milder winters at the moment but the extremes of weather could easily include another snap arctic freeze up, so prudence suggests proper winterisation irrespective, and your insurers might be interested if you do not take prudent precautions. I speak as one who winterised his ship in late July this year in anticipation (probably correct the way things are looking with the virus!) that I might not get back to it before the winter.

Keel cooled engines are less at risk than raw water cooled ones because warm water from under the ship (or under the ice!) will thermosiphon up through the system, but that can never be a guaranteed situation. Raw water systems can be designed to drain effectively but they are all different and an existing system might need some adjustment to allow all parts to drain easily.

Where a primary raw water system cannot be drained effectively antifreeze can be sucked into the system through a suitable port as the engine is shut down, potable grade for preference in deference to the fishes since you will be ejecting this solution into the waterway when you start up next.

A competent engineer or surveyor can also advise on potential latent problems. For example sea cocks in the bottom of a barge are unlikely to freeze, but valves in the side close to the water line can freeze, fracture and leak (even if turned off), which has been known to sink a barge.

Domestic systems can be designed so that they drain effectively through one or two dedicated drain points. On our ship we open two drain valves at the stern of the ship, open all the sink and shower taps and everything drains within minutes to a bilge pump. Close everything afterwards! Alternatively potable antifreeze can again be drawn into the system, but it is expensive stuff.

I put a splash of antifreeze solution down all shower and bath wastes, running the pumps as I do so to draw it in. The dish washer and washing machines get a splash in the bottom, as do the loos. Like Colin I don’t drain steel water tanks.

The central heating (as for the engine closed circuits) is permanently treated with antifreeze. I don’t believe in changing the AF routinely, but always top up when necessary with a strong solution and check with a hydrometer occasionally. Usually within say a seven year period I have fiddled with something that has necessitated at least partial draining of a system so it gets some new antifreeze then!

My point really is that winterising is an easy job once you know what needs doing, which might require one-off professional advice and perhaps a few small modifications to the system , but once you have a few drain valves and a dedicated check list specifically for your barge it is a procedure that should be very easy and take very little time at all. About 20 minutes in our case, and if you do it yourself you know it has been done!

Balliol.
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Engine maintenance 22 Sep 2020 02:07 #118632

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I follow Colin's program plus a flush of food grade antifreeze into the toilet bowls.
I don't run the main engin under no load for more than a minute or so. So a minute before we leave the dock and stuf down in most locks. It's run mostly under load to reduce the chances of glazing the cylinders.
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Engine maintenance 21 Sep 2020 22:59 #118631

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I don't winterize the engine. It and the keel cooler are filled with 35% automotive antifreeze. Gets changed at every 7 year ES-TRIN dry dock when the box drain bolts can be taken out.
Oil gets analysed each year and changed by analysis. Generator then gets changed as well.
Central heating system has same 35% antifreeze mixture.
Freshwater system is drained but tanks left full. They are below the waterline and the warmest canal water is at the bottom. Warmth travels up into the hull bottom.
Freshwater system does get drained and any valves in taps and shower mixers etc get fed a slosh of neat food safe antifreeze into the outlet with a hose fitting.
Left a row of 5 ltr bottled water containers once. Came onboard and interior -9C. Water still liquid in bottles - supercooled. Tapped bottles and they froze instantly.
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Engine maintenance 21 Sep 2020 21:43 #118630

  • Paul Hayes
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"Should I be thinking of winterising it? & is it very difficult to do".

If your barge is in Hawaii, No.
Pretty much anywhere in Europe. Yes, three years ago I was in Capestang a to when it was -6C.

"is it very difficult to do", it depends a) on the barge, b) on your experience.

Yes, recent winters in central Europe have been mild. But that doesn't mean that they will continue to be so.

It's not just the engine that has to be treated, but everything with water in it,

A few years ago a Swiss friend came back to find the rest of his barge okay, but a small plastic pipe in the coffee machine burst, which he called a "catastrophe".

Paul Hayes
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Engine maintenance 21 Sep 2020 20:57 #118629

  • Pete Milne
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I have a DAF 575 too. After a few years of warm winters, I've not bothered 'winterizing' -essentially draining all water so it doesn't freeze and damage the block. I used to religiously drain the block but now use water/anti-freeze mix as in a car.
For oil, I was taught to change every year but with low use for a few years, I run the engine for a while, drain off a little oil and see how it looks on my finger compared to fresh oil. If dark, change it. I recently started my DAF after a year idle and it started instantly. Lots of (traditional DAF) white smoke (good) diminishing as the engine warmed up.

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Engine maintenance 21 Sep 2020 20:15 #118627

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Thank you to you all for the information. It is a DAF 575. I couldn’t remember the number
I am returning to her in mid October to check heaters & dehumidifiers etc (& the bilges)
Prior to my last visit the engine was run about every 6-8 weeks for about an hour at a time during 2018
May I also ask
Should I be thinking of winterising it? & is it very difficult to do
Should I be thinking of changing the oil & how often does that need doing
What about the gearbox. Do I need to do anything to that?
The engine was serviced when I bought her in February 2018 by previous owner

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Engine maintenance 21 Sep 2020 19:04 #118626

  • Balliol Fowden
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Hold out the stop knob and turn the engine over for about 10 seconds to get oil around the bearings and bores and build up some oil pressure before trying to actually run it.

Balliol.
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Engine maintenance 21 Sep 2020 17:53 #118625

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We have a 6 cyl DAF (575) that doesn't get much use. The most important thing when starting after a long interval (we've found) is to make sure the batteries have a very strong charge. Don't forget to pull out the 'choke' and prime the fuel flow with the little finger pump. If it's like ours, halfway down the port side of the engine. I'm sure you know if you have one! We are useless around engines, but it has never failed to start. It has failed many times on the first try, but as long as the battery is strong, it eventually takes. Yes, lots of blue smoke, etc. Best try it while the weather is warm...
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Engine maintenance 21 Sep 2020 16:58 #118621

  • Phillip Carpenter
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Thank you for coming back to me

6 cyl DAF
Keel cooling
No it wasn’t

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Engine maintenance 21 Sep 2020 16:58 #118620

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If nothing more was done to your bike since your departure and it was working properly, the batteries charged properly, then I would just try it and see what happens, it could be that it gives very blue smoke for the first 5-10 minutes , but that's normal eg that goes away when the engine is warm

pay attention to your cooling water, the tap is open and when the engine is running, quickly go to the exhaust as if cooling water is coming out
unless of course you have intercoling.
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res non verba,
Tx for the beer :-)

Engine maintenance 21 Sep 2020 16:43 #118619

  • Paul Hayes
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Hello Philip

A few questions first.
What type of engine is it?
What is the cooling system?
Was the engine winterised?

Paul Hayes
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Engine maintenance 21 Sep 2020 15:05 #118616

  • Phillip Carpenter
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Some advice needed please
Due to my health issues & then COVID we have not been to our barge for almost a year
Therefore the engine has stood idle for that time
There is a power supply keeping the batteries charged but my question is
Do I have to do anything special to the engine before trying to start it

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