Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me
If you don't like what you see click the Report button or...
Read More...
BARGES: All about barges and barging - building, buying, maintaining, equipment, handling on the water, etc.
  • Page:
  • 1

TOPIC: domestic oil heater combi size limits

domestic oil heater combi size limits 14 Jan 2020 16:57 #112944

Chris wrote - if they do, the source is never known

Yes and if the product is truly durable - we bought our oil fired Rayburn from Bubble 20 years ago - the repeat orders are only for the odd spare. Bedazzled is similar - fitted both boats out with. LEDs 10 years ago and haven’t had to replace one yet.

Sad if Bubble are not continuing to advertise in BF - they will be my first port of call when our 40 year old central heating boiler gives up the ghost - not too soon I hope!

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Best Wishes
Andy Soper
DBA Director Representation and Treasurer
mv Neeltje
Coookham
0044 (0) 303 666 0636

You don't need a barge to join - a dream of boating in Europe will do'. See www.barges.org

domestic oil heater combi size limits 14 Jan 2020 14:15 #112933

That's good to hear Pete, it does seem a good deal compared to a Kabola. One of the difficulties with advertising in print is that readers might well visit the website and find out lots of info, enough to decide against it and don't then contact the company or if they do, the source is never known. In the old days you would phone up for a brochure and at least they had a chance to convince you of a sale and ask where you got their name.

Pete Milne wrote:

Chris Grant wrote: ... Sadly we have just lost the advertising in Blue Flag for Bubble (Marine heating systems) as they claim to not have had a single enquiry from any member after several editions of advertising with us. They were advertising a special package for GBP1,800 inc VAT (which could probably be zero rated). www.bubbleproducts.co.uk for more info.

It was the BF advert that prompted me todownload details and add them to my shortlist of options! Without this pompy, I might well have forgotten that it was BF that brought them to my attention when/if I order in a few months time.

Pete

Please Log in to join the conversation.

domestic oil heater combi size limits 14 Jan 2020 14:03 #112932

  • Judy & Simon Lawson
  • Judy & Simon Lawson's Avatar
  • Online
  • Posts: 20
Hi All and Happy New Year.
On a related topic, we are thinking of replacing our Kabola Old Dutch this year with a Kabola Compact 7. We have found one company in France that can do this - Service Fluvial Renovation SAS at Meaux near Paris, but are not initially intending to go that way. We would prefer to head up the Canal de Vosges and wonder is there is anywhere else, say on the Saône or Rhone - St Jean de Losne - @PaulHayes - perhaps?

Any suggestions welcome.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

domestic oil heater combi size limits 14 Jan 2020 13:36 #112929

Chris Grant wrote: ... Sadly we have just lost the advertising in Blue Flag for Bubble (Marine heating systems) as they claim to not have had a single enquiry from any member after several editions of advertising with us. They were advertising a special package for GBP1,800 inc VAT (which could probably be zero rated). www.bubbleproducts.co.uk for more info.

It was the BF advert that prompted me todownload details and add them to my shortlist of options! Without this pompy, I might well have forgotten that it was BF that brought them to my attention when/if I order in a few months time.

Pete

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Pete Milne, Quo Vadis , Gent.

domestic oil heater combi size limits 14 Jan 2020 13:05 #112927

I never like to put-down a product and am happy to be enlightened by happy customers but I know two bargees who had Hurricanes and probably spent more on spares (not easily available in Europe) and servicing than buying a Kabola. One of them was eventually replaced in order to sell the barge. I managed to solder repair a melted control board on one of them which had very poor quality connectors to avoid a €400 replacement. It had spaghetti wiring and poor service access. They seem to be very noisy both inside and out. Perhaps the name 'Hurricane' has something to do with that. Like Eberspächer, they may be OK for small yachts but I would suggest not long-term winter use.

Pete Milne wrote:

Andrew Harrison wrote: As a cheaper alternative to Kabola, Bubble supply pressure jet boilers

Also Calcutt boats ' Hurricane ' (7.3kW) for smaller or well insulated boats. (which someone mentioned before)

Pete

The following user(s) said Thank You: Pete Milne

Please Log in to join the conversation.

domestic oil heater combi size limits 14 Jan 2020 12:34 #112926

Andrew Harrison wrote: As a cheaper alternative to Kabola, Bubble supply pressure jet boilers

Also Calcutt boats ' Hurricane ' (7.3kW) for smaller or well insulated boats. (which someone mentioned before)

Pete

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Pete Milne, Quo Vadis , Gent.

domestic oil heater combi size limits 14 Jan 2020 11:31 #112924

Andrew, interesting you should mention Bubble. Sadly we have just lost the advertising in Blue Flag for Bubble (Marine heating systems) as they claim to not have had a single enquiry from any member after several editions of advertising with us. They were advertising a special package for GBP1,800 inc VAT (which could probably be zero rated). www.bubbleproducts.co.uk for more info.

A plea that if you do see an interesting advert in Blue Flag please mention us if you contact them, it really helps our hard working ad manager Liza to retain our advertisers who support the cost of publication.

Andrew Harrison wrote: As a cheaper alternative to Kabola, Bubble supply pressure jet boilers (12.5kW). I did consider fitting one when our eberspacher failed, but decided against it because replacing the eberspacher like for like was simpler.

Bubble boiler

I cant vouch for reliability etc

Please Log in to join the conversation.

domestic oil heater combi size limits 14 Jan 2020 10:07 #112922

  • Andrew Harrison
  • Andrew Harrison's Avatar
  • Online
  • Posts: 143
As a cheaper alternative to Kabola, Bubble supply pressure jet boilers (12.5kW). I did consider fitting one when our eberspacher failed, but decided against it because replacing the eberspacher like for like was simpler.

Bubble boiler

I cant vouch for reliability etc

Please Log in to join the conversation.

domestic oil heater combi size limits 13 Jan 2020 23:22 #112915

Pete.
For a number of years in the UK it's been against the regulations to run domestic boilers on anything other than keep, (28 second heating oil). The build of the boilers has been basically the same as 35 second heating oil. The main difference being the nozzle and pressure set up of the burner. Sometimes a pre heater is utilised. Burning "red diesel" which is 32 second viscosity comes somewhere in between. Now we aren't interested in tax issues at this point, only how the stuff burns. "Red" 35 second oil is still used in places such as schools.
So if we are burning "proper" 32 second non road use diesel, it's not hard with the correct skills and equipment to get a basic boiler to run sweetly on 32 or 35 second oil.

In an attempt to increase efficiency, condensing boilers were introduced some 25 or so years ago, two problems existed, a) the sulphur in the fuel when burnt became sulfur dioxide, when mixed with the H2O produced in the combustion of the hydrogen in the fuel became sulfuric acid, which eats the hell out of the back of the boiler, so to stop this happening you need to keep the return water temperature up around 60C., Have a drain from the combustion chamber to allow any condense to drain from the boiler. With gas boilers this is easy, back in the days before low sulphur diesel, not so easy.
Now we are in the area of low box boilers which is a control of the flue gas make up, which requires very accurate and variable excess air monitoring, not Idea when the fuel source is variable as when bunkering a barge.
Compensating boilers alter the flow temperature in relation to external air temperature, as the colder it gets the more heat is lost from a structure. This started to be installed in commercial buildings about 35 years ago, now it's the norm in houses, but not ideal in a barge.

A rule of thumb to calculate heating requirements in a barge is total internal volume metres cubed V. Multiplied by 0.1by + 3 if you are healing a calorifier. So in the case of a 30m barge with internal space of 20 m long x 4m wide X 2 m headroom. This is 160 X 0.1= 16 kW plus 3 for water, Total 19kW boiler capacity.

Now in the world of oil boilers anything below 40kW is small, below 20kW is tiny. The nature of the beast and variable fuel supply means that the smaller you go the more susceptible to any fuel, combination air temperature and oil temperature they are.

So to answer your question, a 20kw output is fine, all that happens is that the boiler cycles less, in other words is firing a few minutes less per hour than a slightly smaller setting would.. The difference between 12 and 15 kW is hardly noticeable. In fact the burner on your boiler assuming it's pressure jet could probably be adjusted to supply more than 12 kW which is probably the lowest that it can be set to.
I set the nozzle and pressure on mine to produce 18 kW. Even in the depths of winter (-10C), without the wood burner alight, it only cycles " on" less than 50% of the time.
It's a fact that domestic industry standard boilers are just as efficient and more cost effective than those marked "marine", indeed one "make" is from a well known domestic manufacturer "badged" differently.

Paul Hayes

Paul Hayes

Please Log in to join the conversation.

domestic oil heater combi size limits 13 Jan 2020 18:06 #112908

Paul Hayes wrote: www.mistralboilers.com/oil-fired-boilers/heat-only/boiler-house/

CB1 has a low output.

Is that the BH1? 15-21kWh sounds a lot when my poorly insulated 24m is cosy with an ageing 12kWh Kbola - but it might be working too hard if it's really cold. The Mistral looks interesting as a replacement.

Pete

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Pete Milne, Quo Vadis , Gent.

domestic oil heater combi size limits 13 Jan 2020 17:48 #112906

Thanks Chris for pointing out the Kabola option. Apologies, but I was just thinking of Grant and UK boilers made for Kero. Im sure their blue flame is fit for purpose, just a bit pricy!
The blue flame though is all about low low Nox levels which driven by EU regs. I would like a bit more info regarding the efficiencies gains they are quoting. Great for the marina, but would it be worth the extra cost when out and about against a regular boiler?

Please Log in to join the conversation.

domestic oil heater combi size limits 13 Jan 2020 17:01 #112900

Martin, good advice and I agree, not all boilers are convertible to diesel with a simple nozzle change if designed for kero. However, I wonder how Kabola manage to run their Blue Flame new KB Ecoline series on diesel with to quote 'soot-free' operation? (see in December Blue Flag). The Grant boilers are excellent and it's a shame if they can't be converted for diesel.

Martin Miller wrote: Just a note about using Grant domestic boilers. Old technology, no problem. The newer Vortex should be avoided unless they are to run on kero. (Blue flame is a complete no-no for diesel.). You can set normal vortex boilers up for diesel, but you will have sooting problems as they are specifically designed for kero only. You can still get old tech domestic boilers and because they are old they are simple! Spares cheap and straightforward.
New boilers like to have pcbs in them. Complicated and expensive to replace and don't like the damp.
(In my day job i service/repair domestic boilers)

Please Log in to join the conversation.

domestic oil heater combi size limits 13 Jan 2020 16:57 #112899

Chris

I agree with Martin, even being out of the industry for some years now, I still keep as informed as I can.

You can do a lot worse than getting one of these basic boilers, ½ the price of anything with "Marine" in front of the name. Industry standard burner can be serviced by any oil burner technician anywhere.
Mine is 15 years old and as good as the day I installed it.
I would recommend not to go down the combi or condensing, and definitely not the compensating (boiler) route if burning "red" on a boat - much written on this in the past.

www.mistralboilers.com/oil-fired-boilers/heat-only/boiler-house/

CB1 has a low output.

Paul Hayes

Please Log in to join the conversation.

domestic oil heater combi size limits 13 Jan 2020 12:33 #112893

  • Chris Rowling
  • Chris Rowling's Avatar Topic Author
  • Online
  • Posts: 244
Thanks all for your help

Kabola combi looks good It does look as though it will fit in the space available without major engineering.
(I suspect the calorifiers currently are what allows me to run the diesel for two hours before the engine begins to overheat so they will stay until the Blokland is fitted and proven).

It may be worth us running the hydronics connections forward and putting the Aldi out to pasture too.


Regards
Chris

Please Log in to join the conversation.

domestic oil heater combi size limits 12 Jan 2020 16:54 #112874

Just a note about using Grant domestic boilers. Old technology, no problem. The newer Vortex should be avoided unless they are to run on kero. (Blue flame is a complete no-no for diesel.). You can set normal vortex boilers up for diesel, but you will have sooting problems as they are specifically designed for kero only. You can still get old tech domestic boilers and because they are old they are simple! Spares cheap and straightforward.
New boilers like to have pcbs in them. Complicated and expensive to replace and don't like the damp.
(In my day job i service/repair domestic boilers)

Please Log in to join the conversation.

domestic oil heater combi size limits 25 Dec 2019 13:43 #112470

We installed a Kabola Combi on our 198 Meter barge. ( HR 14)
When we discussed the installation with the installer, we were convinced we needed a total of 10 KW radiators.
We ended up with 3 KW radiators and a 4 KW air unit.
We have not really need both to be on at the same time and with 20/20 hind sight I would have installed only the hot air units, much less obtrusive, and simple only need to run a 4 inch air hose. I might in the future remove the radiators.
The hot water is continuous, no need to demand 'short showers'. ( having American visiting, demanding short showers is a mortal sin)
Yes the Kabola is more expensive than a domestic unit, but it is built like it can take a beating.

I prefer the combo unit, since you are not holding a big tank of hot water warm, which also limits the shower time.
Yes I do mention short showers, but I get the look which compels me to spend a day in the dog house, which on itself is peaceful, but the darn dog collar chafes my neck so much !!!
The following user(s) said Thank You: Chris Rowling

Please Log in to join the conversation.

www.jan-kees.us
jan-kees.blog

domestic oil heater combi size limits 25 Dec 2019 11:42 #112467

  • Balliol Fowden
  • Balliol Fowden's Avatar
  • Online
  • Posts: 2510
I think the points here are:

1. Nobody is criticising Kabola boilers: they are available in suitable sizes for smaller barges and cruisers and are well built. They have industry standard burner units. The simple problem is the price. A similar domestic unit is 1/3rd of the price. Grant do the Vortex Ecoblue boilers from 15 kw

2. The problem with domestic units seems to be the physical size, but in many boats a bit of lateral thinking might provide a solution, including the possibility of an external boiler.

3. In terms of capacity the water heating requirement should not be underestimated (if that is needed in addition to space heating).

4. Our 30 kw Somy in a ca. 220 cu. m. ship was advised to be a bit oversized when installed, but that was what was immediately available on New Year’s Eve in an emergency. In hindsight it is not too big at all in the worst weather. It can work quite hard in the coldest weather despite generally good insulation. I would have thought that for the average medium-well insulated 15 metre boat about 12 to 15 kw was the comfortable minimum for all year round residential use.

5. It used to be said that it was uneconomical to have an oversized boiler and that they should be sized to work, but I am told by others with more experience that modern boilers are better controlled and oversizing is less of a question. I never quite saw the argument since any system or combi
will work to varying demands subject to season, particularly where used for DHW.

Balliol.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Chris Rowling

Please Log in to join the conversation.

domestic oil heater combi size limits 25 Dec 2019 11:08 #112465

As I'm looking for a 7-10(?)kW heating system to put in a 17m barge, thanks Chris for the links! One point I'm considering is availability of engineers in the mainland to service/repair when things go wrong. (See the current conversation about Webasto servicing). More reviews in the SD, would be very helpful, for manufacturesrs or engineers.

Pete

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Pete Milne, Quo Vadis , Gent.

domestic oil heater combi size limits 25 Dec 2019 10:43 #112464

Chris Rowling wrote: The marine brands are with one exception (Kabola) not listed in the suppliers guide
......
Marine ones that are reputed reliable seem to be Dutch, Danish or Canadian
(Kabola, Marine Boost - hollandwarmte.nl/ Dutch site
Refleks refleks-olieovne.dk/en/ and most listings via Toplicht.de
and Hurricane itrheat.com/hurricane-heating-systems/ Eu: www.calcuttboats.com/hurricane.html

Suppliers only appear in the Suppliers Directory if added by, or on the suggestion of, a member. Kabloa are represented in the directory with their own website and by their UK distributor, Kuranda. If anyone has use another company for heaters, whther supplier or manufacturer, please add them to the directory, plus a review. Reflex heaters were discussed in the Forum recently without great recommendation for our use, I think.

Pete

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Pete Milne, Quo Vadis , Gent.

domestic oil heater combi size limits 25 Dec 2019 09:54 #112463

Energy Solutions used to be the agent for Somy. The boilers are made in Belgium by ACV, and are still available. The very smallest barge suitable, N-Mini, has I think been discontinued.
An issue with burners below 19kw or so is that the nozzle holes become very small and in a diesel burner a pre heater is fitted to reduce the viscosity. My Kabola B17 has a1995 Ecoflam burner with pre heating just before the nozzle.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Colin Stone
Barge Register KEI
www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk
DBA - The Barge Association
DBA - De Binnenvaartvereniging
DBA - L’Association des Péniches de Plaisance

domestic oil heater combi size limits 25 Dec 2019 05:27 #112461

  • Chris Rowling
  • Chris Rowling's Avatar Topic Author
  • Online
  • Posts: 244
Hi all

I cannot find Somy marine heaters anymore, are they still available?

The domestic ones seem too large for me (I would guess 70 cubic meters).

The marine brands are with one exception (Kabola) not listed in the suppliers guide

For my own future reference I have found:

Marine ones that are reputed reliable seem to be Dutch, Danish or Canadian
(Kabola,
Marine Boost - hollandwarmte.nl/ Dutch site
Refleks refleks-olieovne.dk/en/ and most listings via Toplicht.de
and Hurricane itrheat.com/hurricane-heating-systems/ Eu: www.calcuttboats.com/hurricane.html

Regards
Chris

.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Pete Milne

Please Log in to join the conversation.

domestic oil heater combi size limits 24 Dec 2019 18:01 #112458

  • Derek and Janice Wallace
  • Derek and Janice Wallace's Avatar
  • Online
  • Posts: 192
I can agree on the Grant stuff having run three for 10+years. Condensing kero fired. Just replace the entire Riello burner every five years at reasonable cost (£225) for good reliability. The jet annually + the filter. About fifteen quid.
Condensing may not work on a small place as the return water from the radiators may well be too hot.
Derek
The following user(s) said Thank You: Chris Rowling

Please Log in to join the conversation.

domestic oil heater combi size limits 24 Dec 2019 14:51 #112456

  • Balliol Fowden
  • Balliol Fowden's Avatar
  • Online
  • Posts: 2510
Marine heaters such as the Kabolas and Somys carry marine prices, but are generally very solidly made and durable.

Most domestic boilers (Worcester, Trianco etc. and many of the makes that nobody has ever heard of)) are cheaply made and the general concensus is that they last five years. They also tend to be electronic.

But in between you have boilers such as the Grant units which are really solidly made and non-electronic. I have a Grant Combi 90 Outdoor at my cottage, 16 years old and it has never caused us a serious problem. I did change the pressure relief valve, auto air bleed, changeover valve , plate heater exchanger, blender etc. a couple of weeks ago, but only because they were all 16 years old and a boiler breakdown can cause us big problems. All these units are bolt-on bits, readily available, pretty cheap and easy to change. The main boiler heat exchanger is solid welded steel and shows no sign of deterioration, so very happy.

That unit is about 25kw, probably a bit large in a small granite cottage, but it was the smallest outdoor unit available and we wanted a combi, but needed to be sure we could service the hot taps adequately, which this unit does. I guess smaller units would be fine as system boilers (i.e. with separate hot cylinder) but with combi's you may have to look carefully at the hot water output (although having said that we run a bath and shower concurrently with no problems).

Obviously the pricing is much keener than that of Kabola's!

Our 30 metre "five bedroom / four bathroom" ship has a 30 kw Somy, just as good a unit as the Grant and equally reliable and simple to work on (indeed simpler because it is system, not combi).

Balliol.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Chris Rowling, Jakob Schröter

Please Log in to join the conversation.

domestic oil heater combi size limits 24 Dec 2019 09:11 #112454

  • Chris Rowling
  • Chris Rowling's Avatar Topic Author
  • Online
  • Posts: 244
Hi all

I note that domestic heaters are being proposed on barges as an option for heating/water.
Looking at the Grant models with the Riello burner, the smallest size seems to be 12kW.

Are these realistic options (Vs Kabola Compact 7) for wee tiddlers?

Regards
Chris

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • Page:
  • 1
Moderators: Pete Milne
Time to create page: 0.382 seconds